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RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like?
March 4, 2015 at 1:31 pm
(March 4, 2015 at 9:55 am)watchamadoodle Wrote: Most Christians might accept that the miracles are myths.
Many Christians might accept that the resurrection of Jesus was not physical but only spiritual
Huh? I would think the divinity of Jesus would be an essential component to Christianity.
Paul wrote in what is now canonized in the NT that "without a physical resurrection our faith is in vein" or words to that effect. I'm going to search when I have time...
A Christian who believes in the teachings of Jesus but rejects the supernatural (which to me makes no sense considering that most of his teachings were about the afterlife) is an "Atheist Christian".
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like?
March 4, 2015 at 1:33 pm
Yeah, pity that crucial part was most likely a forgery.
I'm amazed that doesn't bother christians, you know. The most important part of their whole belief system had to be erratad in later because Mark "forgot to mention it".
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RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like?
March 4, 2015 at 1:33 pm
(This post was last modified: March 4, 2015 at 1:34 pm by abaris.)
(March 4, 2015 at 12:37 pm)Drich Wrote: Now your moving the goal posts. We were taling about Pilate who is very well documented out side of holy text, and now you want to shift to jesus where any text that mentions Him is dismissed because it is holy. Again, it does not seem like you intrested in source material.
Didn't you get the memo then? I never disputed Pilate to be a historical figure, but not with as many real historical sources as you like to claim. He existed, he was a Roman governor and he was corrupt. And we know his probable lineage. That's pretty much all we know.
What's in dispute is the historicity of the Jesus trial and how the jewish priests and Pilate acted according to the bible. Which doesn't add up with real Roman procedures and the law of the land at the time of the supposed happenings.
I didn't move one milimeter from my original claim.
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RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like?
March 4, 2015 at 1:35 pm
(March 4, 2015 at 9:56 am)Nestor Wrote: Born a Jew in Galilee.
Baptized by John the Baptist.
Crucified under Pilate.
In that's the complete criteria, there were likely a dozen Historical Jesuses (Jesusi?). We're sill in the neighborhood of "some-guy-named-Yeshua".
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like?
March 4, 2015 at 1:51 pm
(March 4, 2015 at 1:31 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: (March 4, 2015 at 9:55 am)watchamadoodle Wrote: Most Christians might accept that the miracles are myths.
Many Christians might accept that the resurrection of Jesus was not physical but only spiritual
Huh? I would think the divinity of Jesus would be an essential component to Christianity.
Paul wrote in what is now canonized in the NT that "without a physical resurrection our faith is in vein" or words to that effect. I'm going to search when I have time...
A Christian who believes in the teachings of Jesus but rejects the supernatural (which to me makes no sense considering that most of his teachings were about the afterlife) is an "Atheist Christian".
1 Corinthians 15:13-14. Notice the extremely awkward phraseology in v. 13.
"13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith."
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like?
March 4, 2015 at 1:53 pm
(This post was last modified: March 4, 2015 at 2:03 pm by watchamadoodle.)
(March 4, 2015 at 1:31 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: (March 4, 2015 at 9:55 am)watchamadoodle Wrote: Most Christians might accept that the miracles are myths.
Many Christians might accept that the resurrection of Jesus was not physical but only spiritual
Huh? I would think the divinity of Jesus would be an essential component to Christianity.
Paul wrote in what is now canonized in the NT that "without a physical resurrection our faith is in vein" or words to that effect. I'm going to search when I have time...
A Christian who believes in the teachings of Jesus but rejects the supernatural (which to me makes no sense considering that most of his teachings were about the afterlife) is an "Atheist Christian". Don't forget that Christians are capable of amazing mental contortions and cognitive dissonance. (I know that from personal experience.  )
As long as Jesus existed and was crucified, then I think that is sufficient. Christians can believe that the crucifixion of Jesus somehow opened the door to God's mercy without the miracles and the physical resurrection IMO. I don't think the Nicene Creed claims miracles or a physical resurrection. Remember, many Christians have their born again experiences, their speaking in tongues, their answered prayers, etc.
EDIT: Probably even proving the mythical Jesus hypothesis wouldn't kill Christianity. Christianity would focus more on the rituals and the spiritual experiences. So maybe I'm wrong, and it really doesn't matter...
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RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like?
March 4, 2015 at 1:58 pm
(March 4, 2015 at 1:35 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: (March 4, 2015 at 9:56 am)Nestor Wrote: Born a Jew in Galilee.
Baptized by John the Baptist.
Crucified under Pilate.
In that's the complete criteria, there were likely a dozen Historical Jesuses (Jesusi?). We're sill in the neighborhood of "some-guy-named-Yeshua". Still, we're in the neighborhood of "some-guy-named-Yeshua" who is connected with a resurrected Messiah and all the other things presumably pious Jews and pagans will believe about him within another 50-60 years.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like?
March 4, 2015 at 1:59 pm
I'm getting totally sick of this. I didn't want to have to do it, but I'm going to use my time machine to find out what really happened.
Apologies if I go and screw up causality or something. But you won't notice anyhow.
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RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like?
March 4, 2015 at 4:48 pm
(This post was last modified: March 4, 2015 at 4:48 pm by Drich.)
(March 4, 2015 at 1:33 pm)abaris Wrote: (March 4, 2015 at 12:37 pm)Drich Wrote: Now your moving the goal posts. We were taling about Pilate who is very well documented out side of holy text, and now you want to shift to jesus where any text that mentions Him is dismissed because it is holy. Again, it does not seem like you intrested in source material.
Didn't you get the memo then? I never disputed Pilate to be a historical figure, but not with as many real historical sources as you like to claim. He existed, he was a Roman governor and he was corrupt. And we know his probable lineage. That's pretty much all we know.
What's in dispute is the historicity of the Jesus trial and how the jewish priests and Pilate acted according to the bible. Which doesn't add up with real Roman procedures and the law of the land at the time of the supposed happenings.
I didn't move one milimeter from my original claim.
You still don't get it do you?
Your arguing points of commentary.
I have provided historical fact.
I can not have a discussion with you on subject till you up you game and quote something of merrit to substantiate your claims.
(You opened this can of worms when you asked from what authority I speak from, now that you know. I ask that you put the effort in and answer my posts in kind.)
Stop making undocumented assertions and tie your commentary to a legitmate source if you are going to speak on a historical figure.
I dont know if you are aware but Christians typically deal with empirical data, not just blind faith.
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RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like?
March 4, 2015 at 4:51 pm
(March 4, 2015 at 4:48 pm)Drich Wrote: I dont know if you are aware but Christians typically deal with empirical data, not just blind faith.
Sometimes I really can't help thinking Drich is a troll.
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