If there is a creator, so what?

[robvalue]

Drich: So no reason I should care, I'm just stupid.

Anything to add to that? How will I care when I'm less stupid?

[Edwardo Piet]

@ everyone except Drich regarding their engaging Drich:

[Whateverist]

This is at least original. It's the most bizarre definition of "God" I've ever heard. If I was to use a reverse appeal to popularity fallacy, I'd say it must be false because no one else in the world believes it. I'd be interested to know how you came up with it. 

It's actually a classic Thomistic conceptualization of god, which has been granted status for centuries in the catholic church.  That god is the very essence of being.  All that is, thusly, is rooted in god.

My oxygen analogy wasn't accidental, it's one of the ways they introduce the concept to children, lol.

(no one ever seems to remember that I was educated by a bunch of fucking jesuits, lol)

Imagining what you would be like as a rabid, apologist internet-missionary.


*shudders*

[Whateverist]

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1) From one aspect, the knowledge does not give the ability to do "new" things that people without the knowledge can't do. The knowledge, instead, gives new REASONS for which to do things, reasons which more accurately correspond to reality.

From another aspect, the knowledge moves me to do things that people without that knowledge don't do, e.g. prayer. IF there is a god with whom I and everything else relates, then EVERYTHING communicates something about god through that relation simply by being-what-the-things-they-are. "Listening" to that communication is a very very basic form of prayer. "Listening" to that communication coming from your own personal relation to god is another. The benefit is knowledge of a reality upon which real communion/community may be built.

2) Well, perhaps the marvelling will lead you to other conclusions which might have import for the way and the REASONS for which you act within reality. Perhaps the knowledge about that relation will lead you to a life which is not merely fully human, but fully human in a way that overflows with god's own fullness?

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Okay, thanks. As usual it's very confusing for me.

1) You pray by listening? What do you hear? What use is it?

It is my understanding that many writers likewise make up dialogue between characters by listening to them. Listening is valuable, it allows that certain je ne sais pas into one's interior life. What's that? Never mind just my inner voices squabbling again. Carry on. *no and for the last time i'm not going to kill them all!*

[The Grand Nudger]

It would be ugly, lol.  Thing is, that's just not what I took from it.  I learned the arguments -and- their objections as a matter of course.  I got lucky, in that jesuit institutions are notoriously liberal and a little bit more intellectual than the common fare.  They're the "progressive" wing of the RCC, if it can be said to have such a wing. The current pope, for example, a jesuit, the first jesuit pope, no less.  So you can see where that sort of thing leads.  To the notions, for example, that maybe... just maybe, catholics ought to stop hatin on the gays.  That arguing against evolution is pointless and god was no magician.  A personal favorite of mine, and -exceedingly- jesuit thing to say...that atheists can get into heaven by doing good work.  All the faith, all the arguments...not necessary, do work. That's the jesuit ethos.

The people we get here are an embarrassment to that, frankly.  They're regressives even -within- their own screwed up little fiefdom. Igno here is positively -butchering- while simultaneously trying to sell an 800 year old meditation on god. Telling people that they'rte not full and whole, somehow, because they don't have jesus? Put down the pipe, leave the theology and fishing of men to someone better qualified, and go do some work. It would be better for the apologist, it would be better for the people he;s trying to bullshit, it would be better for the church, it would be better for the world.

[Whateverist]

It's not an issue of speed You aren't moving at all, Igno.

But remember a half empty glass is still half full. Personally I prefer to hear from a theist who doesn't declare victory and strut around knocking over pieces. Let him take his time. After all, he isn't seeking any kind of permission for going on thinking as he does. He is just looking for a context to communicate what he likes about what he believes. In the meantime, instead of warning us that we've been delivered the word and now are in God's hand for judgement, we have a theist who reflects on how well he is communicating. This is the sort of theist that one can really carry on a conversation with.

[Whateverist]

In other words: "If there is a creator, what significance does that have for my own life?"

I fully recognize that even with knowledge of the relationship exists between god and everything else, it will not be significant to some people.

It isn't that I think people "should" care. They are adults, and they will do as the judge best. I do, however, find the nature of the relationship between god and everything else highly meaningful and a real aspect of my approaching a full life. I want others to experience similar amounts of fulfillment, and so I try to paint a good picture with the tools I have. As you can tell, I often struggle.

This post ought to have received many more kudos, people.  You all should give props where they are deserved.  

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[robvalue]

That's quite an admission too, that this relationship won't be significant to everyone. I don't think I've ever heard that before.

But you see... if you fully believe you're having some sort of special relationship with this thing, it's bound to produce an emotional result. Whether or not anything real is going on, that is what I'd expect anyway. It's a kind of placebo effect. The question is how you know whether the emotions are coming from a real relationship, or just being triggered by your belief and what you expect to feel. Of course, I'd say you probably can't tell the difference. Nor could I start feeling this emotion unless I start believing the same thing, or I managed to actually have a relationship, if it is in fact non-imaginary.

Without a hypothesis to test, I can't believe any of it.

[Drich]

Drich: So no reason I should care, I'm just stupid.

Anything to add to that? How will I care when I'm less stupid?

Like I said.. People who elect to live in a world of their own understanding or making... Don't have nor will ever have the resources to look beyond what they can currently see. If you are indeed one of these people then you should care... that is like you telling one of the people who elect to live in a modern stone age there is a load 2016 BMW X5 on ebay that is being given away at 1/2 price right now in a buy it now auction.(there isn't, but you get the picture)

The 'modern' stonagers, don't have the capacity to know to care let alone do anything about it. However if one to look beyond his own horizons and over time learn to accept and acknowledge the world around him... He may indeed want to take note of what he previously would turn his nose up at.

So "when your less.. petulant, "and get to the point where you are willing to honestly look for God and Find him on his terms. You will truly want to be made complete by God as that is how your are designed. If however you need to be forced into caring... then God and I both are perfectly content driving our 1/2 price BMWs while you discover fire.

[Drich]

That's quite an admission too, that this relationship won't be significant to everyone. I don't think I've ever heard that before.

But you see... if you fully believe you're having some sort of special relationship with this thing, it's bound to produce an emotional result. Whether or not anything real is going on, that is what I'd expect anyway. It's a kind of placebo effect. The question is how you know whether the emotions are coming from a real relationship, or just being triggered by your belief and what you expect to feel. Of course, I'd say you probably can't tell the difference. Nor could I start feeling this emotion unless I start believing the same thing, or I managed to actually have a relationship, if it is in fact non-imaginary.

Without a hypothesis to test, I can't believe any of it.

Time...

Time and the ultimate hardships of life/the wind and rain as Jesus describes it.

Over time and protracted.. 'life' our ideas of God are put to the test over and over and over again. given enough time and enough wind and rain, even the hardest heart will break under pressure, Unless there is indeed truth behind our God.

Also keep in mind 'hardships' are not always times without.. Hardship spiritually speaking are often times with too much/plenty.