The Reasons why "Just Following Jesus" Doesn't work

[robvalue]

You are saying all that like it is fact, but it's just a series of assertions.

Any meaningful definition of good/moral, to me, is about the wellbeing of humans and animals. So something like slavery, or stoning children to death for being unruly, are things that go against wellbeing so are evil/immoral. I assume you ignore huge parts of the bible where it disagrees with your own morality? Or are the above two things fine with you?

[Joods]

Objectively if the mouse is eaten by a cat it is bad for the mouse's survival and good for the cat the cat's survival. Yet there is no out cry for the right of a mouse against a cat because it is not evil. There is however an out cry for those people who are being murdered and oppressed by other people.

This argument is an old one I will agree

You're comparing a cat eating a mouse for survival vs. people murdering and oppressing other people.
The cat, obviously viewing the mouse as a food source. I fail to see how people murdering other people can be considered equal when in general, people don't go around looking for other people as sources of food*.


*Disclaimer: Yes, I know cannibalism has been brought up before in other threads, but that's not what we are talking about here.

[Chad32]

If I based my thought of evil or good on what people say then yes it would be subjective. That is the problem with saying we know what is evil and what is good from our parents or the Government/Laws. God is not a man. He is a maximumly great being because He possess all quality that are better to have to their fullest possibility. He also does not possess any negative qualities. So unlike people what He says is trustworthy and true and will never change.
We can all agree that everyone does wrong to some degree. This idea didn't come from our parents because I have three little ones at home and when they have something taken from them the express their wronged feelings. I never had to teach them that. So it isn't taught or legislated it is build in us.

Objectively if the mouse is eaten by a cat it is bad for the mouse's survival and good for the cat the cat's survival. Yet there is no out cry for the right of a mouse against a cat because it is not evil. There is however an out cry for those people who are being murdered and oppressed by other people.

This argument is an old one I will agree

He is still an entity, no matter how great he is. If some ideal comes from him, and is not separate from him, it is subjective. Like when he said to go out and kill everyone that didn't worship him, despite having a rule that says thou shalt not kill.

I'd say he possesses many negative qualities. Being self centered is a negative quality for anyone who wants to interact with other people.

If a little child or baby has something taken away, it has nothing to do whether it's legitimately wrong or not. Like if baby grabs something sharp, and the parent takes it away. the child will have the same reaction that it would have if given food, and having it stolen. We do not have an innate sense of right and wrong. We have a sense of things we want, and things we don't.

[Rekeisha]

FatandFaithless I apologize for not addressing your comment. I have no problem with God's view on slavery. What God outlined in the law was like being an indentured slave. You could choose to be a slave if you wished. If a Jew did own a Jewish slave at the year of Jubilee (every 7 years) the slave would go free unless he or she wanted to stay with the family for the rest of their life. You couldn't sell off a Jewish slave to another country. You could not oppress the foreigner in Israel. In the new testament is speaks of slave owners treating their slaves like brothers. It is not like the slavery we experience now or like in American from the 1500's to the 1800's when people were consider property. Even if I did think it was ok to treat people as property (which I don't) why would you have a problem with that? Am I wrong, but don't you view us as just, as I have heard it said, star stuff bumping together. So what would be the problem with owning another person?

Robvalue you give me no proof that what I have said is just an assertion. Not just that but my life gives me proof that it is a fact. I have met God and have had a relationship with him for 26 years now.

If a cat ate a mouse would that be good for the well being of the mouse? Just and I said to FatandFaithless, if life sprang accidentally from the universe then we are just star stuff one thing is no better than the other. If one person wants to stone another what is the big deal? It is just star stuff.

As for this unruly son. God is serious about His commands and the son in Deut 12:18-21 is breaking the commandment to honor his father and mother. God is not being harsh He is being just. Also this son wasn't just unruly for one day it was a life style. It says that he was a "glutton and a drunkard". He refused to respect his parents and from the use of glutton and drunkard I doubt he is a small child.

Judi Lynn if we are just accidents of the universe and we by luck of the draw got to be humans how is the act with the cat and mouse any different than one person oppressing another. The reason I have that show the difference between these acts is that although the cat and mouse are amazingly complex creature they are not made in the image of God . One person oppresses another then that is defamation of the image of the living God. So again why do you have a problem with my comparison?

Chad32 God does not change so if I base what is good or evil off of Him that will not change either. Just like a compass pointing to the north pole. Now as for the command not to kill actually it says not to murder. Killing and murdering are two different acts. In the New testament Jesus takes it even further and says your words of hate for someone can be equal to murder.

From my experience in life and what I have read in the bible God is not self-centered. He is beyond humble and is self controlled but I am curious Chad32 why do you think he is self-centered?

Chad32 I have seen my children legitimately wrong the other and them being upset because of it. Still are you saying that right and wrong is just made up by people? If so that is so why do we not want things that are truly ours taken away?

[robvalue]

I keep asking jesus for answers, but I just can't seem to nail him down.

And jesus looks nothing like Morgan Freeman, I'm getting suspicious.

---

Here's the problem with assertions:

I've met God too, and had a relationship with him for 30 years. He says the god you think you met isn't real, it's a trick of your mind.

Now what happens?

[Chad32]

Chad32 God does not change so if I base what is good or evil off of Him that will not change either. Just like a compass pointing to the north pole. Now as for the command not to kill actually it says not to murder. Killing and murdering are two different acts. In the New testament Jesus takes it even further and says your words of hate for someone can be equal to murder.

From my experience in life and what I have read in the bible God is not self-centered. He is beyond humble and is self controlled but I am curious Chad32 why do you think he is self-centered?

Chad32 I have seen my children legitimately wrong the other and them being upset because of it. Still are you saying that right and wrong is just made up by people? If so that is so why do we not want things that are truly ours taken away?

I'm pretty sure the god of the old testament acts differently than Jesus does. Even so, never changing doesn't mean you're right. It just means you're stubborn. Surely you don't believe that slavery is ok, and raping an unbetrothed virgin is ok as long as I have five hundred solver on hand, or kill all her friends and family first, do you?

He demands that people worship him on pain of death or torture, and thinks all Humans are evil because someone disobeyed him once. It doesn't get mroe self centered than that.

We don't want anything we have, and are interested in, taken away from us. Whether it truly is ours or not. If your kid wrongs someone, and they feel bad because the other kid was upset, that just means your kid has empathy. If your kid had an innate sense of right and wrong, s/he wouldn't have done wrong in the first place. Unless it was an accident.

[Pizza]

Here's the problem with assertions:

I've met God too, and had a relationship with him for 30 years. He says the god you think you met isn't real, it's a trick of your mind.

Now what happens?

Obviously it was a devil and sin induced hallucination. Stop rebelling against Jee-sus!

[Joods]

Judi Lynn if we are just accidents of the universe and we by luck of the draw got to be humans how is the act with the cat and mouse any different than one person oppressing another. The reason I have that show the difference between these acts is that although the cat and mouse are amazingly complex creature they are not made in the image of God . One person oppresses another then that is defamation of the image of the living God. So again why do you have a problem with my comparison?

This is your perception. I happen to disagree. I have a problem with your comparison because humans operate on a higher level than cats and mice do. Your comparison is not a fair one to make because it is absurd to think that a cat has an ulterior motive, other than to eat the mouse because the cat is hungry. The cat is not going to have a sit-down discussion with the mouse as to why he's about to get eaten. The cat is simply going to do what it needs to do for the sake of survival.

Humans are capable of deep thinking, rationalization and can easily influence others. To oppress another, one would have to either threaten, manipulate or abuse another or stay silent while someone else does the abuse. To stay silent while knowing there is abuse occurring is to side with the oppressor. Cats and mice are not capable of this sort of critical thinking, therefore it's not really a reasonable comparison to make.

[dyresand]

Asking the question do you follow jesus its like asking do you want to fall off of a cliff.
Both end horribly.

[robvalue]

Indeed, drawing loads of false equivocations in order to sidestep the obvious cruelty of god (if he exists) is a clear sign of having a bad product to sell.

I could go through the whole bible and every single atrocity and I'd get backflip after yoga contortion after spinny-spiny move, loads of dishonest ways to explain away God being an absolute piece of shit. I can't be bothered with that anymore really. People obviously feel fine rationalizing the (supposed) atrocities of their fascist dictator, because he is apparently immune to criticism and logic. And, you know, he can do what he likes because might makes right and he'll just squash us like a bug if we don't toady round him.

Well I am standing up to this imaginary tyrant. He can fuck himself with the Holy Spirit wrapped round a dead Jew on a stick.