The Reasons why "Just Following Jesus" Doesn't work

[drfuzzy]

Exactly Nymphadora!  My childhood was pretty nasty too - - I prayed and prayed and prayed to be "perfect" and "holy" enough so that my Mother (who spent nearly all of her time praying, reading the bible, and listening to xtian radio) wouldn't have to "spank" me all the time. But geez, a kid will sometimes miss some dust, or not get a spoon perfectly clean.  And not only did I never seem to get any help from Jesus, but my Father (who was sweet and brilliant and way too gentle) would only intervene when he knew my life was in danger. I went to a Christian school.  I spent my entire life praying and studying the bible. I didn't dare to doubt or question. 
    And then as a teenager, I attended a church where folks were expected to stand up and bear "witness" during the service. I was part of groups that met beforehand to plan what they were going to "share".  They made up stories before church, and by the end of church, they believed them. Anyone who couldn't speak in tongues was pitied.  Well, I was pitied - because I begged the Holy Spirit to help me constantly, and it just never happened.
    And I kept faithfully praying for another 30 years after that, and never . . . ever . . . had any sense that anyone was listening.  

So yeah.  Either gawd really plays favorites . . . or people just decide what they are going to believe and what they are going to tell the other people in their belief system.  They need to make themselves feel special and have the other church members see them as "holy" and "blessed".

[Redbeard The Pink]

Hey thanks for pointing out the lieing thing, I think I have been spelling that wrong for a long time.

Yeah, among other things.

I don't see how a list of atrocities are a proof against God.

I'm sure you don't, and you probably still won't after I explain.


They're a proof against your specific Gaud because they contradict the innate qualities that he is said to have according to the Bible and Christian doctrine. The Universe we observe and the character in the Bible are simply not consistent with an all-knowing, all-loving, all-powerful creator. If you remove all the passages that say "God is good" and look at just his actions, it becomes clear that the god of the Bible is a vindictive, megalomaniacal, amoral monster.

Actually, let me say it this way. I don't see how you can judge God with integrity so therefore I take your statement about God being evil as erroneous.

I can judge the gods because I'm a human, and humans created all the gods. They're fictional characters, and I am perfectly within rights and reason to treat them as such and to criticize their failings as characters.

Why I make that statement is because your standard for right and wrong is inconsistent.  You say that morals are subjective so there is nothing that is firm and unmoving to base your judgements, today America insists that ____  is wrong but in a couple of months it may not be. At the core your standard for morals are only arbitrary and at the whim of what people deem as correct whether they are consistent with reality or not.

If having an arbitrary standard for morality means that a person can't make judgements about right and wrong, then you can't do that, either. If Gaud's standard for morality is based solely on his own say-so, then Gaud's morality is arbitrary.


Furthermore, Gaud's morality is inconsistent, mainly concerning killing other humans. Basically what you're telling me is that even the most atrocious action is acceptable as long as it falls into Gaud's plan, which means that your morality is arbitrary and inconsistent, which means that by your own logic you can't, with integrity, judge any statement I make as right or wrong.

As for 2. I do know what happened because I know the one who made it happen.

I had a feeling you were going to say something like that.


The problem with it is that you're misusing the word "know." If you want to claim you "know" something, you have to be able to somehow show that it's true. If you can't show it, you don't know it...you just believe it; if you believe without evidence, then you believe only on faith, and faith is the most intellectually dishonest position it's possible to hold.

God is trustworthy and nothing like us.  You are the one who is uncertain because you rely on humans to tell you what is real.

No, actually I rely on hard evidence from the real world. You're the one following a thing that was made up by humans.

Humans are flawed, self-seeking, finite, and do not know everything.

Which is exactly the reason we use science now instead of whatever we make up in your heads.

Scientist are not perfect humans so their findings can be flawed and misinterpreted to fit their own presuppositions.

And that is why the peer review process exists. Nothing makes it to the level of "Theory" on the say-so of one or two people. Everyone has to be able to do the same thing under the same conditions and get the same result for it to pass the tests of science.

Don't assume or put your trust in science because it can't save you.

From what, all that sexy, sexy wrath? I notice you glossed right over that, and I'm still waiting. How is the all-good- all-loving creator of the Universe going to horribly torture me for all time? I'd really like to know.

It has not proven a great deal of things, yet you will bet your eternal soul on it.

Actually, I'm going one step further and betting that I don't have a soul at all, and neither does anyone else. Your Bible hasn't proven anything at all, so why would you stake your belief on that?

So you have a double standard because I would say the same for your assertion that matter has always existed.

And again, I didn't assert that as the truth; I only offered it as a possible explanation. Even so, the evidence to support the fact that matter/energy can't be created or destroyed is also evidence that matter/energy could be eternal, so even then I still have more evidence than you do.

Don't play with your eternal soul because you want to be right. If your world view has to skirt past the "why", you don't have assurance of consistency, or have a firm standard for morals; then your world view is weak, and will cause destruction in your life.

Actually, it's done quite the opposite. My life is much better and more fulfilled now that I'm not trying to please an imaginary voice in my head or a character from a story book. My faith, on the other hand, has destroyed a lot of things for me over the years, namely some relationships I would have opted not to lose but didn't have the choice because I was an intolerable, religious asshole.

[Rekeisha]

Yeah, among other things.

Yep, and that is why I am in need of a savior to redeem me. He is changing me day by day and forming me into His image.

They're a proof against your specific Gaud because they contradict the innate qualities that he is said to have according to the Bible and Christian doctrine. The Universe we observe and the character in the Bible are simply not consistent with an all-knowing, all-loving, all-powerful creator. If you remove all the passages that say "God is good" and look at just his actions, it becomes clear that the god of the Bible is a vindictive, megalomaniacal, amoral monster.

There is no contradiction in God's character only people's misunderstanding or defaming it through twisting the text. He is consistent and you have only been alive for about 3 decades (give or take) so how could you possible know if His character is consistent with the universe? (Do you "know" everything?)I can show how you twist the scripture because if you do as you suggested and remove the passages that says God is good then you are misrepresenting the bible to fit into your purposes and point-of-view. You can't just focus on one portion of the Bible or the other but both and. He isn't a "neat" little god. He is the God of the universe and He doesn't have to prove Himself to you. He is being kind and gracious He "is not being slow in doing what he promised—the way some people understand slowness. But God is being patient with you. He doesn’t want anyone to be lost. He wants everyone to change their ways and stop sinning." (2 Peter 3:9)

Also you can't claim what is right and wrong because in your view morality is subjective. You don't have a firm and fixed definition of what good is. You have no grounds for judgement because you don't have an unmoving standard on which to Judge God. Today murder is wrong tomorrow who knows you have to check with your society to see what they say. 

And that is why the peer review process exists. Nothing makes it to the level of "Theory" on the say-so of one or two people. Everyone has to be able to do the same thing under the same conditions and get the same result for it to pass the tests of science.

Coming up with something under the same conditions and interpreting what that means for you as a human can be misinterpreted. Whole groups of people have been deceived before. Don't assume that Scientist are above this mass deception. 

From what, all that sexy, sexy wrath? I notice you glossed right over that, and I'm still waiting. How is the all-good- all-loving creator of the Universe going to horribly torture me for all time? I'd really like to know.

Gal 6:7-8 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

The problem with it is that you're misusing the word "know." If you want to claim you "know" something, you have to be able to somehow show that it's true. If you can't show it, you don't know it...you just believe it; if you believe without evidence, then you believe only on faith, and faith is the most intellectually dishonest position it's possible to hold.

I can and have but you refuse to believe. So let put your standard of "know" to the test. Show me that matter was the only thing here at the beginning is true. Show me that life came from non-life is true. Show me that you don't have a soul is true.  If you can't show me then I guess by your own definition you just blindly accept these to be true. 

 My faith, on the other hand, has destroyed a lot of things for me over the years, namely some relationships I would have opted not to lose but didn't have the choice because I was an intolerable, religious asshole.

I don't think religion or the lack of religion has anything to do with the way you behave. You choose how you treat people. I have been a jerk and God has removed and is removing those thing not by religion but by reflecting on His glory. 

Thanks again for the conversation!

[drfuzzy]

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Yeah, among other things. 

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 Yep, and that is why I am in need of a savior to redeem me. He is changing me day by day and forming me into His image. 

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 They're a proof against your specific Gaud because they contradict the innate qualities that he is said to have according to the Bible and Christian doctrine. The Universe we observe and the character in the Bible are simply not consistent with an all-knowing, all-loving, all-powerful creator. If you remove all the passages that say "God is good" and look at just his actions, it becomes clear that the god of the Bible is a vindictive, megalomaniacal, amoral monster. 

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 There is no contradiction in God's character only people's misunderstanding or defaming it through twisting the text. He is consistent and you have only been alive for about 3 decades (give or take) so how could you possible know if His character is consistent with the universe? (Do you "know" everything?)I can show how you twist the scripture because if you do as you suggested and remove the passages that says God is good then you are misrepresenting the bible to fit into your purposes and point-of-view. You can't just focus on one portion of the Bible or the other but both and. He isn't a "neat" little god. He is the God of the universe and He doesn't have to prove Himself to you. He is being kind and gracious He "is not being slow in doing what he promised—the way some people understand slowness. But God is being patient with you. He doesn’t want anyone to be lost. He wants everyone to change their ways and stop sinning." (2 Peter 3:9)

Also you can't claim what is right and wrong because in your view morality is subjective. You don't have a firm and fixed definition of what good is. You have no grounds for judgement because you don't have an unmoving standard on which to Judge God. Today murder is wrong tomorrow who knows you have to check with your society to see what they say. 

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 And that is why the peer review process exists. Nothing makes it to the level of "Theory" on the say-so of one or two people. Everyone has to be able to do the same thing under the same conditions and get the same result for it to pass the tests of science.

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 Coming up with something under the same conditions and interpreting what that means for you as a human can be misinterpreted. Whole groups of people have been deceived before. Don't assume that Scientist are above this mass deception. 

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 From what, all that sexy, sexy wrath? I notice you glossed right over that, and I'm still waiting. How is the all-good- all-loving creator of the Universe going to horribly torture me for all time? I'd really like to know. 

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 Gal 6:7-8 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

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 The problem with it is that you're misusing the word "know." If you want to claim you "know" something, you have to be able to somehow show that it's true. If you can't show it, you don't know it...you just believe it; if you believe without evidence, then you believe only on faith, and faith is the most intellectually dishonest position it's possible to hold.

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 I can and have but you refuse to believe. So let put your standard of "know" to the test. Show me that matter was the only thing here at the beginning is true. Show me that life came from non-life is true. Show me that you don't have a soul is true.  If you can't show me then I guess by your own definition you just blindly accept these to be true. 

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  My faith, on the other hand, has destroyed a lot of things for me over the years, namely some relationships I would have opted not to lose but didn't have the choice because I was an intolerable, religious asshole. 

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Rekeisha: I don't think religion or the lack of religion has anything to do with the way you behave.

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 You choose how you treat people. I have been a jerk and God has removed and is removing those thing not by religion but by reflecting on His glory. 

Thanks again for the conversation! :  

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Oh, not exactly.  There has been a recent study by a NY Criminology Professor that correlates Christian Fundamentalist beliefs and attitudes with crime.  
Elicka Peterson Sparks - The Devil You Know: The Surprising Link between Conservative Christianity and Crime
   "In this trenchant examination of Christianity’s dark side, a criminologist argues persuasively that high rates of violent crime in the United States can be correlated with Christian conservative attitudes, especially in regard to social mores and politics. Of particular concern is “Christian nationalism.” Noting the violent biblical passages often cited by religious conservatives, their sense of righteousness, their dogmatic mindset that tolerates no dissent, and their support for harshly punitive measures toward “sinners,” Peterson Sparks shows that their worldview is the ideal seedbed for violence." 

There was another that shows that religious children are meaner than their secular counterparts:  http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/no...kids-study



So yeah.  A religious worldview has a definite impact upon a person's behavior.  It tends to make them behave like assholes.

[Redbeard The Pink]

Yep, and that is why I am in need of a savior to redeem me. He is changing me day by day and forming me into His image.

You need a savior because of your poor English? What?

There is no contradiction in God's character only people's misunderstanding or defaming it through twisting the text.

There is absolutely contradiction in Gaud's character, and pretty much the only way for you to ignore that is through ignorance of the text and sheer mental gymnastics.

He is consistent and you have only been alive for about 3 decades (give or take) so how could you possible know if His character is consistent with the universe? (Do you "know" everything?)

The body of scientific evidence I'm drawing on is much older than I am. Sure, there may be things we don't know, but the few things we DO know about the Universe are consistent with complete lack of governing influence or divine intervention. Simply put, the Universe shows no evidence of its requiring a god to exist or create it. Nothing about the known Universe warrants or demands such an explanation.

I can show how you twist the scripture because if you do as you suggested and remove the passages that says God is good then you are misrepresenting the bible to fit into your purposes and point-of-view. You can't just focus on one portion of the Bible or the other but both and.

But that's what you're doing. You're accepting all the things about him being good and loving and ignoring all the abuse and atrocity that his own book blames him for. You can't just focus on one portion of the Bible, and yet you focus on all the fluffy crap and simply excuse all the horror as being "part of his perfect plan." I hate to break this to you, but if Gaud's plan couldn't prevent sin or suffering, then it wasn't perfect.

He isn't a "neat" little god. He is the God of the universe and He doesn't have to prove Himself to you.

If he actually wants me to believe in him, then yes, he does.

He is being kind and gracious He "is not being slow in doing what he promised—the way some people understand slowness. But God is being patient with you. He doesn’t want anyone to be lost. He wants everyone to change their ways and stop sinning." (2 Peter 3:9)

Is a robber being kind and gracious because he offered me a chance to just hand the money over quietly before blowing my brains out? No?


Then neither is Gaud.

Also you can't claim what is right and wrong because in your view morality is subjective.

Actually, we've been over this, and my standard is the Golden Rule. While still subjective to the situation, it functions on empathy and has been the most consistent staple of human morality since the beginning. Gaud wouldn't want us to send him to Hell, but he supposedly does it to us anyway, so he doesn't follow the Golden Rule, which makes him an asshole.

You don't have a firm and fixed definition of what good is.

Neither do you.

You have no grounds for judgement because you don't have an unmoving standard on which to Judge God. Today murder is wrong tomorrow who knows you have to check with your society to see what they say.

Golden. Fucking. Rule. Society is usually remarkably consistent on the whole "murder" thing, until religion gets involved. Then it's lynchings and witch-burning everywhere, not to mention a healthy helping of kill-a-whole-race-for-disbelieving-your-gods.

Coming up with something under the same conditions and interpreting what that means for you as a human can be misinterpreted. Whole groups of people have been deceived before. Don't assume that Scientist are above this mass deception. 

Scientific findings aren't scripture: there's usually no "interpreting" to be done. Data generally speaks for itself. Either the experiment turned out with the same numbers, or it didn't.

Gal 6:7-8 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

Luckily for me, your vague threats from the Bible are not scary to me...


You're not gonna talk to me about the wrath, are you? About all the horrible tortures for those people in Hell, meted out by your all-loving despot? I do wonder why you're avoiding that. Is it hard to picture Gaud as a loving father when his demons are raping and eviscerating people for eternity? Do you have a hard time picturing his loving face as it watches all those humans burn to satisfy his jealous rage?

I can and have but you refuse to believe.

No. What you've offered me is arguments, Bible verses, and ad hoc bullshit, as well as a heaping dose of ignorance and lack of critical thinking. There has been no evidence shown.

So let put your standard of "know" to the test.

This should be good.

Show me that matter was the only thing here at the beginning is true.

Show me where I asserted that as the truth. I never said matter was the only thing around at the beginning of the Universe. It might have been nothing, it might have been energy, it might have been matter, it might have been some mix of those things, or it might have been none of those things. Scientists don't know yet, and neither do you.

Show me that life came from non-life is true.

Rock layers, bitch. Rock layers like these.


"The most recent three layers are the Paleozoic, Mesozoic, and Cenozoic. These layers represent the last 500 million years of life on earth."


That first layer, the Paleozoic, has mostly invertebrates and basic plant types (nothing even with flowers yet). Beyond that, we see rock layers with basically no fossils in them, suggesting that life did not exist at one point and did exist later on. If it didn't exist before and does now, then clearly life must have followed from non-life at some point. Geology is how we show this.

Show me that you don't have a soul is true.

You see my profile pic? Ginger.


Seriously, though, you're once again misplacing the burden of proof, which is another thing I'm sure we've covered already. You're essentially asking me to prove that something doesn't exist, to which my response would be "prove that invisible, pink Unicorns don't exist.

 If you can't show me then I guess by your own definition you just blindly accept these to be true. 

Oh look...I just showed you.

I don't think religion or the lack of religion has anything to do with the way you behave. You choose how you treat people.

Right...and my basis for those choices used to be a book of myths, and I behaved differently in those days than I do now, and my current mode of behavior is more conducive to healthy, lasting relationships than my old one. I wonder why that is...

I have been a jerk and God has removed and is removing those thing not by religion but by reflecting on His glory. 

Thanks again for the conversation!

Ummm...you're welcome, I guess?

[Rekeisha]

May I see the documentation for the evidence of the Israelite God coming for the storm god El? As well as the evidence of the change of the biblical old testament documents that were altered trying to cover up the fact?

Okay, start with Dr. Mark S. Smith, a Biblical scholar who holds the Skirball Chair of Bible and Ancient Near Eastern Studies in the Department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies at NYU:

In the past, the question of Israelite polytheism has been approached by looking for evidence of specific deities worshipped by Israelites in addition to Yahweh. These would include biblical criticisms of the worship of other deities, such as the goddess Asherah in 2 Kings 21 and 23, as well as apparent references to this goddess or at least her symbol in the inscriptions from Kuntillet 'Ajrud and Khirbet el-Qom in the eighth century. In the Kuntillet 'Ajrud inscriptions, the symbol is treated respectfully as part of the worship of Yahweh. The gods Resheph and Deber appear in Habakkuk 3:5 as part of the military retinue of Yahweh. Other deities who gain some mention in the Bible include the "hosts of heaven" criticized in 2 Kings 21:5, but mentioned without such criticism in 1 Kings 22:19 and Zephaniah 1:5. Scholars have also noted that the god El is identified with Yahweh in the Bible, again with no criticism. The criticisms of Yahweh's archenemy, the storm god, Baal, also seem to reflect Israelite worship of this god. While many of these deities are not well known from the Bible, they are described sometimes at considerable length in the Ugaritic texts, discovered first in 1928 at the site of Ras Shamra (located on the coast of Syria about 100 miles north of Beirut). As a result of comparing biblical and inscriptional evidence with the Ugaritic texts, we can see how the worship of other deities lasted for quite a long time in Israel down to the Exile in ca. 586.

(Bold emphases my own.)

http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/MSmi...eism.shtml

I actually recommend you read some of his books. You can start with these:

The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel

The Origins of Biblical Monotheism: Israel's Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic Texts

I read some of the article, watched some lectures from Mark Smith, as well as some of his works and others works a well. I also looked into the ugaritic and I still think this is a thin argument. 

As no one is neutral I believe our presuppositions will play into how we treat God's word. If you wish to find fault in the text you will. I don't agree with what is asserted by Professor Smith which is Yahweh becoming the head God over lesser gods, but actually the writers of scriptures using the literary styles of the time. As well as showing Yahweh's dominance over all of the surrounding culture's man made gods by rightly taking ownership over their abilities. God's prophets were directed, by Him, to magnify Him and help their fellow Israelites see that God is over and above all other false gods of their time. In the account in Exodus of God removing the Israelites from slavery you can see God attacking the Egyptian gods. In the Account of Elijah, in Kings, you can see God controlling the weather which a neighboring culture were attributing to Baal, and the Israelites had adopted as their "god". Elijah even challenges the Baal worshippers to have their god bring fire from heaven and light the fire on the altar which they couldn't. Yet, God sets fire to a soaked altar. God was displaying, like now, His dominance over any other false"'gods".

Also, I as I mentioned before, that people used similar words to explain who God is. He uses the understanding and culture of the people to explain who He is through the ideas and understandings of the culture. (this type of writing is seen throughout the bible)

So trusting in someone's degrees to bolster your rejection of God will not save you. You still have a major problem and there is only one who can save you. He accomplished this through His blood for all of your lies you tell yourself and other about Him. God is willing to give you forgiveness and embrace you. He is trustworthy and true. He is the only way you will be able to remove the stain of your sin.

[Rekeisha]

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 Yep, and that is why I am in need of a savior to redeem me. He is changing me day by day and forming me into His image. 

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 There is no contradiction in God's character only people's misunderstanding or defaming it through twisting the text. He is consistent and you have only been alive for about 3 decades (give or take) so how could you possible know if His character is consistent with the universe? (Do you "know" everything?)I can show how you twist the scripture because if you do as you suggested and remove the passages that says God is good then you are misrepresenting the bible to fit into your purposes and point-of-view. You can't just focus on one portion of the Bible or the other but both and. He isn't a "neat" little god. He is the God of the universe and He doesn't have to prove Himself to you. He is being kind and gracious He "is not being slow in doing what he promised—the way some people understand slowness. But God is being patient with you. He doesn’t want anyone to be lost. He wants everyone to change their ways and stop sinning." (2 Peter 3:9)

Also you can't claim what is right and wrong because in your view morality is subjective. You don't have a firm and fixed definition of what good is. You have no grounds for judgement because you don't have an unmoving standard on which to Judge God. Today murder is wrong tomorrow who knows you have to check with your society to see what they say. 

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 Coming up with something under the same conditions and interpreting what that means for you as a human can be misinterpreted. Whole groups of people have been deceived before. Don't assume that Scientist are above this mass deception. 

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 Gal 6:7-8 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

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 I can and have but you refuse to believe. So let put your standard of "know" to the test. Show me that matter was the only thing here at the beginning is true. Show me that life came from non-life is true. Show me that you don't have a soul is true.  If you can't show me then I guess by your own definition you just blindly accept these to be true. 

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Rekeisha: I don't think religion or the lack of religion has anything to do with the way you behave.

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 You choose how you treat people. I have been a jerk and God has removed and is removing those thing not by religion but by reflecting on His glory. 

Thanks again for the conversation! :  

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Oh, not exactly.  There has been a recent study by a NY Criminology Professor that correlates Christian Fundamentalist beliefs and attitudes with crime.  
Elicka Peterson Sparks - The Devil You Know: The Surprising Link between Conservative Christianity and Crime
   "In this trenchant examination of Christianity’s dark side, a criminologist argues persuasively that high rates of violent crime in the United States can be correlated with Christian conservative attitudes, especially in regard to social mores and politics. Of particular concern is “Christian nationalism.” Noting the violent biblical passages often cited by religious conservatives, their sense of righteousness, their dogmatic mindset that tolerates no dissent, and their support for harshly punitive measures toward “sinners,” Peterson Sparks shows that their worldview is the ideal seedbed for violence." 

There was another that shows that religious children are meaner than their secular counterparts:  http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/no...kids-study



So yeah.  A religious worldview has a definite impact upon a person's behavior.  It tends to make them behave like assholes.

what is your definition of christianity?

[Rekeisha]

There is absolutely contradiction in Gaud's character, and pretty much the only way for you to ignore that is through ignorance of the text and sheer mental gymnastics.

this is an assertion not an explanation.

The body of scientific evidence I'm drawing on is much older than I am. Sure, there may be things we don't know, but the few things we DO know about the Universe are consistent with complete lack of governing influence or divine intervention. Simply put, the Universe shows no evidence of its requiring a god to exist or create it. Nothing about the known Universe warrants or demands such an explanation.

In order to know that God's character is not consistent with the Universe you must posses all knowledge and beyond, or know someone who does, because there are things about God in which we on this side cannot know.  

If he actually wants me to believe in him, then yes, he does.

No, He doesn't it is for your benefit that you believe (trust) not for His. You are the one dead in your sins and He is sinless, holy, and perfect. He lacks nothing and it is only through His mercy that He reaches out to you for your salvation. He is above you and will judge you. So, you may hide behind your lies and supposed lack of evidence. This again will not save you. You will be condemned and already stand condemned without the blood of Christ for the remission of your sins. 

But that's what you're doing. You're accepting all the things about him being good and loving and ignoring all the abuse and atrocity that his own book blames him for. You can't just focus on one portion of the Bible, and yet you focus on all the fluffy crap and simply excuse all the horror as being "part of his perfect plan." I hate to break this to you, but if Gaud's plan couldn't prevent sin or suffering, then it wasn't perfect.

This is another assertion without evidence. Suffering is a part of God's plan.

Is a robber being kind and gracious because he offered me a chance to just hand the money over quietly before blowing my brains out? No?


Then neither is Gaud.

Propaganda. God is not a robber trying to kill you. You are the one who is in the wrong. You are the one who is robbing God of His rightful glory with your lies. He owes you nothing but justice yet through His mercy He will forgive you and seeks to bless you greatly. He paid the penalty for your God hating rejecting, lying, glory stealing sin on the cross. Mock Him and lie to yourself all you wish it will not save you. Only the blood of Christ. 

Actually, we've been over this, and my standard is the Golden Rule. While still subjective to the situation, it functions on empathy and has been the most consistent staple of human morality since the beginning. Gaud wouldn't want us to send him to Hell, but he supposedly does it to us anyway, so he doesn't follow the Golden Rule, which makes him an asshole.

It is still subjective not matter what you base it on. When you attempt to put God on your level you show how much you lack in understanding who He is. God came down and suffered as a human. He died on the cross and took our eternal punishment. You can pretend that God arbitrarily sends people to Hell, but you are lying to yourself. God sends those to hell who refuse Him. Your rejection of His holiness and goodness to hold onto your sin and evil means that God will justly and rightfully send you to Hell. If you choose, you can see that He does follow the golden rule by fulfilling the punishment for our sin. He had complete and full understanding of the pain of Hell because He took our punishment. Your smug pretension of trying to place yourself above God and His holiness and goodness will not save you. You are not more moral or loving than He.  

Golden. Fucking. Rule. Society is usually remarkably consistent on the whole "murder" thing, until religion gets involved. Then it's lynchings and witch-burning everywhere, not to mention a healthy helping of kill-a-whole-race-for-disbelieving-your-gods.

Propaganda and it won't save you

Show me where I asserted that as the truth. I never said matter was the only thing around at the beginning of the Universe. It might have been nothing, it might have been energy, it might have been matter, it might have been some mix of those things, or it might have been none of those things. Scientists don't know yet, and neither do you.

You keep back peddling about what you didn't say. Why don't you just admit that you don't know the truth about how the universe is made and that you are just grasping at what sounds good to you today so that you can reject God.

Rock layers, bitch. Rock layers like these.

Insults won't save you. 

Neither do you.

Don't believe everything you think. God is good

Seriously, though, you're once again misplacing the burden of proof, which is another thing I'm sure we've covered already. You're essentially asking me to prove that something doesn't exist, to which my response would be "prove that invisible, pink Unicorns don't exist.

In other words you don't know. Don't stake your soul on such a flimsy belief system. 

Right...and my basis for those choices used to be a book of myths, and I behaved differently in those days than I do now, and my current mode of behavior is more conducive to healthy, lasting relationships than my old one. I wonder why that is...

I don't know probably modified behavior which isn't the same as knowing God and having the Holy Spirit indwell in you. Moralism doesn't save, modified behavior doesn't save, being nicer doesn't save, having lasting relationships don't save, having your best life now doesn't save.

[drfuzzy]

---

Oh, not exactly.  There has been a recent study by a NY Criminology Professor that correlates Christian Fundamentalist beliefs and attitudes with crime.  
Elicka Peterson Sparks - The Devil You Know: The Surprising Link between Conservative Christianity and Crime
   "In this trenchant examination of Christianity’s dark side, a criminologist argues persuasively that high rates of violent crime in the United States can be correlated with Christian conservative attitudes, especially in regard to social mores and politics. Of particular concern is “Christian nationalism.” Noting the violent biblical passages often cited by religious conservatives, their sense of righteousness, their dogmatic mindset that tolerates no dissent, and their support for harshly punitive measures toward “sinners,” Peterson Sparks shows that their worldview is the ideal seedbed for violence." 

There was another that shows that religious children are meaner than their secular counterparts:  http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/no...kids-study

---

So yeah.  A religious worldview has a definite impact upon a person's behavior.  It tends to make them behave like assholes.

what is your definition of christianity?

I was a fundamentalist for 46 years.  My parents started out Southern Baptist and went further right from there.  For Dr. Petersen-Sparks' purposes, though, we're talking about anyone who holds a literalistic "word of god" view of the bible.

[Redbeard The Pink]

this is an assertion not an explanation.

I've already explained (what page are we on again?) how the traits attributed to Gaud by Christian doctrine are contradicted by reality, by logic, and by the actual Bible. I am not going to repeat myself just because you thought blinking at my responses stupidly would make them disappear.

In order to know that God's character is not consistent with the Universe you must posses all knowledge and beyond, or know someone who does, because there are things about God in which we on this side cannot know.

No, I just need to know enough about the Universe and enough about the proposed character to be able to conclude that the proposed character doesn't follow the rules I observe in the Universe, nor does it leave evidence of its presence or interference in physical reality. Your Gaud is indistinguishable from something that does not exist.

No, He doesn't it is for your benefit that you believe (trust) not for His. You are the one dead in your sins and He is sinless, holy, and perfect. He lacks nothing and it is only through His mercy that He reaches out to you for your salvation. He is above you and will judge you. So, you may hide behind your lies and supposed lack of evidence. This again will not save you. You will be condemned and already stand condemned without the blood of Christ for the remission of your sins.

And the omni-benevolent god of love will torture me forever in a realm of fire and death, right?


You've said that already, and I'm not sure you realize that it's the equivalent of threatening somebody with the boogey-man or Krampus. I have no reason to believe that your god exists, I have no reason to believe he has the power to torture me forever after I die, and I have no reason to believe that we persist after we die at all. Before you can frighten me with hell, you'd have to convince me that it and your god exist, and you have utterly failed to do so.

This is another assertion without evidence. Suffering is a part of God's plan.

That would be why it isn't a perfect plan. A perfect plan would exclude both sin and suffering from possibility. A perfect plan wouldn't wind up damning a third of the angels in heaven and over 99% of humanity. It's a good thing the god of the Bible doesn't exist, because if he did most of us (including you, probably) would be seriously fucked.

Propaganda. God is not a robber trying to kill you.

No, he's just threatening me with eternal damnation in hell (or you are, rather). That's much, much worse than simply robbing or killing me. The robber is actually infinitely more moral than your god, in that instance, because what he does to me is infinitely less cruel.

You are the one who is in the wrong. You are the one who is robbing God of His rightful glory with your lies.

If your god were really all-powerful, I wouldn't be able to rob him of anything. Is he really so weak that his glory can be stolen by a man in a pointy, pink hat?

He owes you nothing but justice yet through His mercy He will forgive you and seeks to bless you greatly. He paid the penalty for your God hating rejecting, lying, glory stealing sin on the cross. Mock Him and lie to yourself all you wish it will not save you. Only the blood of Christ.

You do realize you sound like someone who belongs to a blood/death cult when you talk like that, right? The very idea of blood sacrifice is immoral and abominable, and the fact you can convince yourself otherwise is a testament to what religion does to people.

It is still subjective not matter what you base it on.

Even a subjective standard like the Golden Rule is more moral than Divine Command theory, which is what you're proposing. Doing what you're told because Gaud said so isn't morality.

When you attempt to put God on your level you show how much you lack in understanding who He is. God came down and suffered as a human. He died on the cross and took our eternal punishment.

Gandalf died to protect the Fellowship of the Ring from the Balrog and rose from the dead to save Middle Earth from Sauron. Why don't you worship Gandalf?

You can pretend that God arbitrarily sends people to Hell, but you are lying to yourself. God sends those to hell who refuse Him.

And that's the criteria Gaud has arbitrarily chosen by making the rules, so his sending people to hell is arbitrary. Thank you for agreeing with me.

Your rejection of His holiness and goodness to hold onto your sin and evil means that God will justly and rightfully send you to Hell.

So you think I deserve to be burned forever. Wow. That's pretty fucked up. I think you're pretty fucking annoying, but i don't think you deserve to burn in hell forever over it. Just another example of how I'm more moral than both you and your imaginary friend.

If you choose, you can see that He does follow the golden rule by fulfilling the punishment for our sin. He had complete and full understanding of the pain of Hell because He took our punishment. Your smug pretension of trying to place yourself above God and His holiness and goodness will not save you. You are not more moral or loving than He.

I'm not just more moral and more loving, I'm also more powerful.

Propaganda and it won't save you

How do you plan to save yourself from the imminent zombie apocalypse?

You keep back peddling about what you didn't say. Why don't you just admit that you don't know the truth about how the universe is made and that you are just grasping at what sounds good to you today so that you can reject God.

I've already said I don't know exactly how the Universe formed, but that has practically nothing to do with why I reject your Gaud. I reject your Gaud because there's been no demonstration that it's real.

Insults won't save you.

And wasting all this time won't save you from the zombies, woman! Put your zombie survival bunker together, then post on the internet. Priorities!

Don't believe everything you think. God is good

Believing everything I think is what kept me believing in magic from storybooks for so long. I became an atheist when I finally stopped doing that.

In other words you don't know. Don't stake your soul on such a flimsy belief system.

Ah...Pascal's Wager...prove I have a soul and then we can talk about where it's going. Also, if the Muslims are right, aren't you kind of fucked? If the only evidence you have is your book, why isn't their book evidence, too?

I don't know probably modified behavior which isn't the same as knowing God and having the Holy Spirit indwell in you. Moralism doesn't save, modified behavior doesn't save, being nicer doesn't save, having lasting relationships don't save, having your best life now doesn't save.

See, this is one of the main reasons you're having a hard time convincing anyone. This idea you have that we were never "True Christians" is just ignorant and insulting. You might insist that if I really believed I still would, but I know how sincere I was. I was more active in ministry than you, I believed more in the practical power of the Holy Spirit than you (I was casting evil spirits out of houses, for fuck's sake), and I know the Bible better than you do. Regardless of your assertions to the contrary, I sincerely believed in the saving power of Jesus to such an extent that I actively engaged in spiritual warfare, and now I don't believe he's even real.