The Reasons why "Just Following Jesus" Doesn't work

[Redbeard The Pink]

So let me drill down a little further. If you don't start with God (who is the source of all life, knowledge and reason)

According to what? How do you know that? What evidence is there that god is the source for these things?

how do you account for logic, knowledge, and uniformity because in your world-view (if you are being honest) humans are just stuff.

Right...and so is everything else. Uniformity arises from the fact that everything in the universe is made of more or less the same "stuff," and the fact that this "stuff" is acted on by forces that perform with absolute consistency, allowing us to build predictive models based on what we know of how those things interact with each other. This is potentially the most basic and arguably the only reason science works. 

Order can arise from disorder because the particles in the universe aren't just whizzing around randomly waiting to bounce into each other. They're attracted to each other by forces like electricity, magnetism, and gravity, and these forces draw particles of matter together until systems of varying complexity come into being. There is no evidence to suggest that a conscious being is needed to start or maintain anything of these processes, or anything else we've discovered in the universe, for that matter.

Again you still can't honestly claim there is anything that is wrong or right or anything positive or negative. In your world view things just are there is nothing that we as people ought to do because we are just stuff.

In the objective sense, yes. Right and wrong are not created by absolute rules of the universe. Only reality seems to be created by the absolute rules of the universe, and the objective reality is that humans have evolved to be social, cooperative creatures to one degree or another, and the evidence suggests that the more we tend toward those traits and away from traits like violence and bigotry, the more successful, happy, and healthy we tend to be as a species. Morality arises both from the knowledge of suffering and the evolved human trait of empathy, which allows us to think about things from another being's perspective.

This is what allows us to establish the closest thing humans have to objective morality: the Golden Rule. You know you don't like to suffer and want to be treated with kindness, and would consider it wrong of someone to treat you in a way that is not in accordance with your wishes; would they then not logically feel the same way about how they wish to be treated, and would you not be wrong by your own standards to add to their suffering or treat them unkindly? "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is perhaps one of the only morally praiseworthy parts of the bible, and they stole that shit. That rule predates the bible by THOUSANDS of years.

God is pure in the sense that He is moral pure. There is no mixture of evil in Him . God being all good wants to restore us since we have been corrupted and are broken in all areas of our lives. He has taken great pains and sacrifice (on the cross) in order to help you understand that He understands and loves you.  He knows what hurts you have and your needs and wants to give you a life that is abundant pure and clean. There is a full life in Jesus but you must first repent and seek forgiveness of your sins. Once He is Lord and Saviour of your life that is when you have the power through the Holy Spirit to live a life that is truly right and good.

God is not morally pure. He is morally hypocritical. He demands one standard of behavior from his subjects while doing the exact opposite himself. Furthermore, he routinely commits and/or encourages genocide, rape, infanticide, murder...the list goes on. He makes exceptions to his own rules, he fucks with free will constantly, and he repeatedly acts with rage, jealousy, and vengeance toward the things he created, yet forbids us to do those things to each other (because vengeance "belongs" to him or some such bullshit...just the christian version of Karma).

Jesus is not the key to a pure life. Christians lead more or less the same lives non-christians do, in the Western World, at least. The only real difference is that christians feel somehow less accountable for the morally reprehensible shit they do, whereas non-theists have to face their actions and own their responsibility. Theists routinely accuse atheists of wanting to dodge responsibility for their actions, but it's actually the other way around. That's what heaven is really about...not being punished for being an asshole.

[Salacious B. Crumb]

What I just read is that you don't have any real foundation on which to judge God.

If you did just read what I wrote, I actually do. I gave you a few examples of many, that I could have given. I can look at the world and the universe, and see chaos, death, and destruction. I don’t see any divine intervention of love, judging by that, I gave you two options of how I could see a god, and the third option being the most likely, that he doesn’t exist. Of course, there are good things happening everyday too, I don’t focus on the bad, but when people claim that there is a loving god out there that cares for us, and answers our prayers, I’m going to say, “I see absolutely no evidence of that, actually, I see strong evidence to the contrary, unless you think god has favorites.”

I can't tell you are wrong because there is no right and wrong. When you don't start with God you do as you did and start with yourself, but if everyone is starting with themselves then there is not true foundation. People change and are only alive for a short amount of time. You can't build a true coherent existence off of people if you actually want to live by what is right and wrong.

There is right and wrong for most people. Many people will have different stances on abortion, legalization of drugs, marriage, and capital punishment. There will be many different opinions of these things, even within the christian community. So, there really isn’t an objective right and wrong, there is only opinion, on many issues. And, why don’t you tell me what is right and wrong? God says don’t kill, but orders people to kill in the bible. It seems a little hypocritical. What is right, killing or not killing? If you get your morals from the bible, you’re basically just picking and choosing what you feel to be moral, because of the contradictory and hypocritical nature of the bible. Instead of getting my morals from a primitive book of barbarism, I get it from logic, emotion, and observation. I don’t pick up a book, and say, “Ok, I’m following everything in that now, even if I do feel that it is evil.” That’s what crazy people do. Of course, that’s my opinion.

Now if you are going to be intellectually honest with your world view you can do whatever you want to people and people can do whatever they want to you and there will be no right and no wrong.

I’m sure that you’ll find that I am intellectually honest, but maybe not, because I disagree with many evil things in your book of morality. I can make a claim, and I can back it up, and if I can’t, I own up to it, and apologize. I have yet to run into a theist on here, that makes claims that they can’t back up, or that dodges logical questions, that’s called intellectual dishonesty. Anyways, there can be right and wrong, and it’s subjective. It seems that you are suggesting that is no right and wrong, because we don’t believe in a god to keep us in check. If you actually think you can’t be moral without a god, then you are the immoral one, in my opinion. If god keeps you from being an immoral person, I feel sorry for you. More to your point, I feel, yes, people can do whatever they want to each other, but that’s why we came up with real consequences to these things we consider to be wrong, rather than just man-made threats of hell that allegedly occur after you die.

You will also have to stop claiming religion is doing anything positive or negative or that God is good or bad because that definition does not exist in your world view. 

Actually, no, I don’t. I have the right to my opinion and my morality, thanks.. And again, don’t be dishonest and put words in my mouth, there is right and wrong in my world view, and those may change over time. Just because we disagree on some morality issues, doesn’t mean my opinion is irrelevant. I can give you actual reasons why I believe what I believe, you give me, “It’s in a book that I’m forced to follow, because I was raised in a christian household.” That’s my guess, because if not, and you found the bible as a teen or an adult, and believed it, you are out of your mind. Yes, I’ll happily back up all of those claims with real world evidence and with my morality, if necessary. Usually that proves useless, because many theists don’t like to hear the bad things in their bible, they just like defend them.

I can claim what is good or bad because I have a standard that doesn't change and that is God.

Again, NOT TRUE. In the OT, God is mostly a megalomaniacal, jealous, genocidal, petty, immoral, anthropomorphic psychopath, and in the NT, he has some of those judgmental qualities, but became more of a loving being. Definitely not entirely, but his morals improved somewhat in the NT. He still throws you in hell, if you don’t accept him as a savior. The only evidence of jesus that is accepted by christians, is the evidence of him in the gospels, which isn’t good enough evidence for a rational human being. Even if there was good evidence for his existence, that doesn’t mean he did all of these supernatural miracles. That takes a MASSIVE leap of faith to just believe that those things actually happened.

He isn't just the standard for good but for all truth. He wants to correct your brokenness and made that possible by dieing for your sins on the cross all you have to do is repent, or stop living your life on your own terms, and seek His forgiveness as your Lord and Savior.

Here’s an example of him not being good, Ex 21:20-21. Please be honest, and say, you’re right that is not good, not everything god says in the bible is good, or say I adhere to that morality. In that case, I’ll happily stop talking to your extremely immoral self. And for the rest of that stuff that you said, back it up or don’t bring it up. And, yes, I’ve tried to seek him out many times, but he doesn’t care to seek me back.

[IATIA]

... unless you think god has favorites.

Well, according to the buy-bull, if you were not a part of Moses's crew, you were pretty well fucked.

[Rekeisha]

We account for knowledge by seeing how the world works, doing tests, and making note of consistency. It's a process, and going back and revising when we get new information keeps things as accurate as possible. This is how we find out how planets actually form, what really causes illness, and such. The universe is full of stuff, and this stuff interacts with other stuff in a way that we can gain knowledge about how the stuff within the universe works. The more we know about this stuff, the fewer things we attribute to gods. For instance, we know lightning doesn't come down because there's a guy on a cloud hurling bolts at the ground. We also know that the reason a church might get struck by lightning is less because of heresy, and more because it was probably built on a hill with a tall steeple at the top.

Yes, I can. You're just ignoring our ability to gather consistent data over time with which to base our views. Since they're not absolute, you want to throw them out the window as useless, and consult a book with outdated views like slavery, discrimination, thought crime, and such. Yet you're accusing me of being dishonest because I believe even a flawed system has value. The more we work at it, the less flawed it becomes.

I suppose since you believe your god defines good and evil, you can safely say he doesn't have evil in him. Which isn't saying much, really. If I was all powerful I could say I'm perfectly good too, while killing and torturing anyone who disagrees.

I don't really see any sacrificing going on. Jesus came back, and either sits at god's right hand or is god himself. What has god lost in the long term? I've heard he carries the burden of sin, so does that mean he has PTSD? That's not exactly clear. I don't think he understands us at all, since he calls us fundamentally evil. I may have said this before, but he can't even get his followers to agree on what his message is, and if its just the christians who are going to heaven it's only a minority of the population that he's able to save. That shows a severe lack of understanding. He sets a bar for us that is impossibly high, and can't get the majority of the population to even believe in him. he can't even keep the people who want to worship him from killing each other over how to interpret the bible. That is a failure on his part if his goal is to gain as many followers as possible.

He's waiting for me to come to him, and I'm waiting for him to come to me. Except that I can live my life just fine without him, so if he wants to be worshiped he needs to show himself to me. He seems to want me, but I could take him or leave him. I cannot ask someone for forgiveness, or dedicate my life to him, if I haven't met him.

You have not accounted for knowledge, logic, or consciousness you have just stated that we are able to use them. I am asking with your world-view, which says we are just the byproducts of chaos, how do you account for uniformity or the ability for conscious and coherent thought? How can you reason at all? When have you ever observed consciousness coming from non-consciousness?

You are just judging God by arbitrary means because your system of morals, as you have already stated, are subjective to you. Your judgment on Him has no authority.

Evil is a corruption of good. A good action has to exist first for there to be a bad action. Lying can not exist before the truth because reality must exist before someone can speak a falsity about it. So God is good and has never changed and there is no mixture in Him. He is pure and good. Since the world has become corrupted by our sin he through the cross has sought a way to purify us so that we can have a relationship with Him. He must judge sin because as I stated before He is pure and good. Yet he is loving and wishes that we would all come into a relationship with Him.

So this is how Jesus sacrificed, because I used to have the same question. He being the one who made all thing and is above all things made himself the the lowest. He didn't come to the earth as a rich man but poor. He grew up in a limited and imperfect human body. He allowed His creation to attack Him, to betray Him, and murder Him all so that He could take your sin and my sin upon Himself. And this great mystery that I don't understand, He was separated form God the Father because He became a substitute for us. He was always in perfect relationship with the Father but he took the full force of the wrath of God so that we wouldn't have to. He didn't do this through His power but through the power of His the Holy Spirit.

You only assume that you can live your life without Him. He keeps the universe in uniformity so the fact that you can trust certain practices to work and keep you alive is all due to God.

[Redbeard The Pink]

You have not accounted for knowledge, logic, or consciousness you have just stated that we are able to use them. I am asking with your world-view, which says we are just the byproducts of chaos, how do you account for uniformity or the ability for conscious and coherent thought? How can you reason at all? When have you ever observed consciousness coming from non-consciousness?

Yes, he did. We both did. Understanding the universe is how we use knowledge, but knowledge (and subsequently logic) is possible because of and arises from the fact that the universe behaves in consistent ways. All evidence suggests that this consistency is inherent, that it simply "is the way it is," and always has been. There is no evidence, however, that the universe's consistency was authored or designed by anyone or anything. The god claim enters the equation as an argument from ignorance because we don't know the reason (if any) that the universal constants exist the way they do.

As for consciousness, that is a natural process that arose with the evolution of creatures with brains and nervous systems. Once critters started taking in data from their surroundings and actually processing it, that started the process of life developing conscious processes. Billions of years later, you get things with various sensory capacities and a processing engine that not only takes data in, but can do a whole load of other shit like think, reason, speak, etc.

You are just judging God by arbitrary means because your system of morals, as you have already stated, are subjective to you. Your judgment on Him has no authority.

All morals are subjective. Your morals are subjective. Nobody's judgement on anything has any authority unless it's backed up by facts and evidence, and the mere "facts" of your Gaud on paper prove that he is inherently paradoxical. He cannot be omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, and omni-benevolent if he created our universe and acts the way he did in the texts that describe his murderous, rapacious, genocidal rampages throughout history. He has to drop at least one of those qualities.

Evil is a corruption of good. A good action has to exist first for there to be a bad action. Lying can not exist before the truth because reality must exist before someone can speak a falsity about it. So God is good and has never changed and there is no mixture in Him. He is pure and good. Since the world has become corrupted by our sin he through the cross has sought a way to purify us so that we can have a relationship with Him. He must judge sin because as I stated before He is pure and good. Yet he is loving and wishes that we would all come into a relationship with Him.

Evil and good are words humans use to describe things they observe. They are not objective forces of the Universe. They are human concepts that were created by human beings...just like the gods.

So this is how Jesus sacrificed, because I used to have the same question. He being the one who made all thing and is above all things made himself the the lowest. He didn't come to the earth as a rich man but poor. He grew up in a limited and imperfect human body. He allowed His creation to attack Him, to betray Him, and murder Him all so that He could take your sin and my sin upon Himself. And this great mystery that I don't understand, He was separated form God the Father because He became a substitute for us. He was always in perfect relationship with the Father but he took the full force of the wrath of God so that we wouldn't have to. He didn't do this through His power but through the power of His the Holy Spirit.

See, this is the kind of evil nonsense I'm talking about. Your god CAN'T be omni-benevolent and all-loving if he created a system by which all sin must be atoned for with a blood sacrifice. I, a flawed human, am able to forgive others without requiring anything from them, let alone their lives or the lives of their animals. If I can do that, why doesn't Gaud do it? If it's because he chooses to be avenged, then he is not omni-benevolent. If it's because he has to be avenged and has no choice in the matter, then he is not all-powerful.

You only assume that you can live your life without Him. He keeps the universe in uniformity so the fact that you can trust certain practices to work and keep you alive is all due to God.

No. The forces of the Universe keep the Universe in uniformity. God is not holding everything together like glue. That's being done mostly by gravity and electromagnetism.

[Chad32]

We account for knowledge by seeing how the world works, doing tests, and making note of consistency. It's a process, and going back and revising when we get new information keeps things as accurate as possible. This is how we find out how planets actually form, what really causes illness, and such. The universe is full of stuff, and this stuff interacts with other stuff in a way that we can gain knowledge about how the stuff within the universe works. The more we know about this stuff, the fewer things we attribute to gods. For instance, we know lightning doesn't come down because there's a guy on a cloud hurling bolts at the ground. We also know that the reason a church might get struck by lightning is less because of heresy, and more because it was probably built on a hill with a tall steeple at the top.

Yes, I can. You're just ignoring our ability to gather consistent data over time with which to base our views. Since they're not absolute, you want to throw them out the window as useless, and consult a book with outdated views like slavery, discrimination, thought crime, and such. Yet you're accusing me of being dishonest because I believe even a flawed system has value. The more we work at it, the less flawed it becomes.

I suppose since you believe your god defines good and evil, you can safely say he doesn't have evil in him. Which isn't saying much, really. If I was all powerful I could say I'm perfectly good too, while killing and torturing anyone who disagrees.

I don't really see any sacrificing going on. Jesus came back, and either sits at god's right hand or is god himself. What has god lost in the long term? I've heard he carries the burden of sin, so does that mean he has PTSD? That's not exactly clear. I don't think he understands us at all, since he calls us fundamentally evil. I may have said this before, but he can't even get his followers to agree on what his message is, and if its just the christians who are going to heaven it's only a minority of the population that he's able to save. That shows a severe lack of understanding. He sets a bar for us that is impossibly high, and can't get the majority of the population to even believe in him. he can't even keep the people who want to worship him from killing each other over how to interpret the bible. That is a failure on his part if his goal is to gain as many followers as possible.

He's waiting for me to come to him, and I'm waiting for him to come to me. Except that I can live my life just fine without him, so if he wants to be worshiped he needs to show himself to me. He seems to want me, but I could take him or leave him. I cannot ask someone for forgiveness, or dedicate my life to him, if I haven't met him.

You have not accounted for knowledge, logic, or consciousness you have just stated that we are able to use them. I am asking with your world-view, which says we are just the byproducts of chaos, how do you account for uniformity or the ability for conscious and coherent thought? How can you reason at all? When have you ever observed consciousness coming from non-consciousness?

You are just judging God by arbitrary means because your system of morals, as you have already stated, are subjective to you. Your judgment on Him has no authority.

Evil is a corruption of good. A good action has to exist first for there to be a bad action. Lying can not exist before the truth because reality must exist before someone can speak a falsity about it. So God is good and has never changed and there is no mixture in Him. He is pure and good. Since the world has become corrupted by our sin he through the cross has sought a way to purify us so that we can have a relationship with Him. He must judge sin because as I stated before He is pure and good. Yet he is loving and wishes that we would all come into a relationship with Him.

So this is how Jesus sacrificed, because I used to have the same question. He being the one who made all thing and is above all things made himself the the lowest. He didn't come to the earth as a rich man but poor. He grew up in a limited and imperfect human body. He allowed His creation to attack Him, to betray Him, and murder Him all so that He could take your sin and my sin upon Himself. And this great mystery that I don't understand, He was separated form God the Father because He became a substitute for us. He was always in perfect relationship with the Father but he took the full force of the wrath of God so that we wouldn't have to. He didn't do this through His power but through the power of His the Holy Spirit.

You only assume that you can live your life without Him. He keeps the universe in uniformity so the fact that you can trust certain practices to work and keep you alive is all due to God.

Is it really arbitrary to say slavery is bad? That human sacrifice is bad? That rape is always wrong? That killing groups of people for holding beliefs that don't endanger your group is bad? That killing an innocent person to pay for the crimes of the guilty is bad? That punishing someone infinitely for finite crimes is bad? You're trying to say that all these things are fine, at least some of the time, because you read about it in a book, and you accuse me of having arbitrary reasons for disagreeing. This is why I'm not sure why I'm even still posting in this thread anymore. Your views are so ridiculous that nothing I say is going to penetrate.

If god really wanted to send someone down to change the world for the better, he should have been born into royalty. Then he could have run a country in a good way, influenced other leaders of the world through diplomacy, and brought people closer to what goodness is. Instead he grew up a poor guy, spent ten years talking to people in a small area, and his attempts to disrupt the status quo were met with gruesome execution. Instead of sending himself down to die, he should have sent himself down to lift others up. It was a poor job, and not the first time he did a poor job.

I'm done. I don't usually get this rude with people on the internet, but I'm frustrated and exhausted with this. I'm sorry. I have nothing else to say.

[Rekeisha]

According to what? How do you know that? What evidence is there that god is the source for these things?

I have a few 1) my relationship with Him. 2) When I was too young to read He told me about Himself and everything He said to me is in the Bible  3) the fact that no one has ever observed coherent consciousness thought come from any non-consciousness thing.

Order can arise from disorder because the particles in the universe aren't just whizzing around randomly waiting to bounce into each other. They're attracted to each other by forces like electricity, magnetism, and gravity, and these forces draw particles of matter together until systems of varying complexity come into being. There is no evidence to suggest that a conscious being is needed to start or maintain anything of these processes, or anything else we've discovered in the universe, for that ma

What I have read form this statement is that there really isn't disorder in the universe. So how did this order come about in light of your world view?

In the objective sense, yes. Right and wrong are not created by absolute rules of the universe. Only reality seems to be created by the absolute rules of the universe, and the objective reality is that humans have evolved to be social, cooperative creatures to one degree or another, and the evidence suggests that the more we tend toward those traits and away from traits like violence and bigotry, the more successful, happy, and healthy we tend to be as a species. Morality arises both from the knowledge of suffering and the evolved human trait of empathy, which allows us to think about things from another being's perspective.

So you say the universe didn't create right and wrong only reality so by your statement there is no right and wrong because it isn't apart of reality. Does that also mean there isn't any logic, reason or knowledge? Or when did the universe in your world view create these.
How did these rules of the universe come about?

God is not morally pure. He is morally hypocritical. He demands one standard of behavior from his subjects while doing the exact opposite himself. Furthermore, he routinely commits and/or encourages genocide, rape, infanticide, murder...the list goes on. He makes exceptions to his own rules, he fucks with free will constantly, and he repeatedly acts with rage, jealousy, and vengeance toward the things he created, yet forbids us to do those things to each other (because vengeance "belongs" to him or some such bullshit...just the christian version of Karma).

You have already stated before that right and wrong are not apart of reality in your world view so you have no bases on which to make this statement. In your world view you are being arbitrary by judging God on what you claim is hypocrisy. As a mater of fact you can't judge anyone on anything because your judgment is just from you imagination because it is not a part of what you say is reality.

Your world view can't account for any right or wrong because you have suppressed the truth about God and his Holiness. Yet, since He is loving, He sent His son into the world to die for your sin so that you could be made whole and come into a relationship with Him. A true relationship with God is a life of transformation into the likeness of God where you will be purified. A life of peace and strength comes from God because, with accepting Christ as your lord and savior, you will receive the Holy spirit to help guide you into all truth. You will also have the power to over come your sins. I have seen it in my life and in the lives of others.

[The Grand Nudger]

No, you haven't.

[Redbeard The Pink]

I have a few 1) my relationship with Him. 2) When I was too young to read He told me about Himself and everything He said to me is in the Bible  3) the fact that no one has ever observed coherent consciousness thought come from any non-consciousness thing.

1) That relationship exists inside your head. It is not something you can demonstrate for peer review, so it is not evidence.

2) No. When you were too young to read, your parents/church teachers told you about the bible, and convinced you that you would always be able to believe everything it says. They made this easier by presenting only "kid-friendly" versions of these stories that you were unlikely to question or be offended by.

3) That is not an argument. Conscious thought comes from things with brains, and we can see evidence of how brains and conscious thought came into being from earlier forms of life that did not have those things. Consciousness comes from nature.

What I have read form this statement is that there really isn't disorder in the universe. So how did this order come about in light of your world view?

Then you didn't really read the statement properly, or you're deliberately straw-manning it to make it easier to dismiss with your semantic bullshit. The universe and the various systems that comprise it are in a constantly-shifting equilibrium of order and disorder, and this order comes about from the fact that matter is acted on by universal forces with consistency, and these natural processes create systems that possess what humans define as "order" (which generally just means that they tend to move in patterned, consistent, predictable ways).

So you say the universe didn't create right and wrong only reality so by your statement there is no right and wrong because it isn't apart of reality. Does that also mean there isn't any logic, reason or knowledge? Or when did the universe in your world view create these.
How did these rules of the universe come about?

No. You idiot. Morality is not dictated by the universe, but that does not mean it does not exist. It means that objective morality does not exist. Subjective morality does exist, and for humans that morality generally consists of some combination of a person's cultural influences and their personal views on morality. There is no absolute standard for it.

Furthermore, knowledge, logic, and reason are not rules of the universe either. Those are human words to describe abstract concepts and thought processes.

You have already stated before that right and wrong are not apart of reality in your world view so you have no bases on which to make this statement. In your world view you are being arbitrary by judging God on what you claim is hypocrisy. As a mater of fact you can't judge anyone on anything because your judgment is just from you imagination because it is not a part of what you say is reality.

No. Stop with the straw-men already. I never said right and wrong are not part of reality. I said they are not dictated by objective reality. Right and wrong are part of reality, they're just not part of nature. They are human concepts created to categorize things that humans observe into things they like and things they don't like. I can absolutely make a judgement based on my personal morality, but I'm also aware of the fact that my judgement is exactly that: mine. There just happen to be various moral principles that many humans tend to agree on (probably owed to our evolutionary tendency toward cooperation), so there are cases where humans collectively get together and establish mutual moral agreements amongst a culture. This is where right and wrong comes from for everyone. You think it comes from god and your bible because you do not understand this process.

Your world view can't account for any right or wrong because you have suppressed the truth about God and his Holiness. Yet, since He is loving, He sent His son into the world to die for your sin so that you could be made whole and come into a relationship with Him. A true relationship with God is a life of transformation into the likeness of God where you will be purified. A life of peace and strength comes from God because, with accepting Christ as your lord and savior, you will receive the Holy spirit to help guide you into all truth. You will also have the power to over come your sins. I have seen it in my life and in the lives of others.

I was a christian for 20+ years. Your Jedi mind tricks do not work on me. Jesus, Jehovah, the Holy Ghost...these are fictional characters...imaginary friends...they make you feel warm and fuzzy, but they give you nothing and do nothing for you.

[Rekeisha]

There is right and wrong for most people. Many people will have different stances on abortion, legalization of drugs, marriage, and capital punishment. There will be many different opinions of these things, even within the christian community. So, there really isn’t an objective right and wrong, there is only opinion, on many issues. And, why don’t you tell me what is right and wrong? God says don’t kill, but orders people to kill in the bible. It seems a little hypocritical. What is right, killing or not killing? If you get your morals from the bible, you’re basically just picking and choosing what you feel to be moral, because of the contradictory and hypocritical nature of the bible. Instead of getting my morals from a primitive book of barbarism, I get it from logic, emotion, and observation. I don’t pick up a book, and say, “Ok, I’m following everything in that now, even if I do feel that it is evil.” That’s what crazy people do. Of course, that’s my opinion.

Again if there is only subjective morality then there is no true right or wrong.  In your wold view there is just stuff. So some stuff doing things to other stuff can't be right or wrong because it is just stuff. No one is going out and claiming that bricks are morally wrong but we know that there is a way that we aught to behave because we are not just stuff. We have logic, thought, consciousness and that can not come from in animate things. It must come from a being that is also conscious being who thinks logically and has a moral code.

If you actually think you can’t be moral without a god, then you are the immoral one, in my opinion. If god keeps you from being an immoral person, I feel sorry for you. More to your point, I feel, yes, people can do whatever they want to each other, but that’s why we came up with real consequences to these things we consider to be wrong, rather than just man-made threats of hell that allegedly occur after you die.

Again this statement does not line up with our world view. We are just the happen stance of other stuff so the only things you can account for are the material things. You can't account for thought, reason, knowledge, or morals. There are in material and non-consciousness can not create consciousness. If lava runs over grass there is no moral out cry, but if a person abuses another person there is. That is because we are not just stuff. We embody the very image of God, who you are suppressing the truth of. We instinctively know what aught to do because He has put that in all of us. Yet our sin clouds our thinking because we would rather make the rules and guide our life than to submit to God. He, being righteous, must judge all of our misdeeds or He would not be righteous. Yet He being merciful and loving wanted to make a way for us to escape His wrath. He sent His son to take our place so that we would  not just be saved but would also experience a new life and relationship with Him. One that is pure, abundant and holy.

Again, NOT TRUE. In the OT, God is mostly a megalomaniacal, jealous, genocidal, petty, immoral, anthropomorphic psychopath, and in the NT, he has some of those judgmental qualities, but became more of a loving being. Definitely not entirely, but his morals improved somewhat in the NT. He still throws you in hell, if you don’t accept him as a savior. The only evidence of jesus that is accepted by christians, is the evidence of him in the gospels, which isn’t good enough evidence for a rational human being. Even if there was good evidence for his existence, that doesn’t mean he did all of these supernatural miracles. That takes a MASSIVE leap of faith to just believe that those things actually happened.

Your world view's morals are all based on opinion and not reality. You judgment has no true foundation on which to judge what is right and wrong so you are just comeing to arbitrary conclusion
You speak of massive leaps of faith but your world view can't account for logic, knowledge, uniformity, or consciousness by which to judge wither my faith is anything.
Also like I have said before I know Jesus. I speak to Him everyday. I don't believe in Him because of the Bible but I believe the Bible because of Him.

Here’s an example of him not being good, Ex 21:20-21. Please be honest, and say, you’re right that is not good, not everything god says in the bible is good, or say I adhere to that morality. In that case, I’ll happily stop talking to your extremely immoral self. And for the rest of that stuff that you said, back it up or don’t bring it up. And, yes, I’ve tried to seek him out many times, but he doesn’t care to seek me back.

I can make a judgment on those two lines of scripture and I could explain it to you  because I have a standard that stands outside of myself. You could use your subjective morals to judge my statement. Then who would be right? If we used your wold view no one. If we use may standard of right and wrong we could compare it to the absolute truth and make a judgment from that.