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RE: General argument for Islam.
April 4, 2015 at 7:59 pm
(This post was last modified: April 4, 2015 at 8:06 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Objection one, your reasoning is unreasonable. If it's boring, then you should spice it up.
Your belief in god (and lets be honest... a great many other things) does not make that belief immune to criticism...particularly when you are attempting to establish both proof of that god and it;s system. You're not half as obtuse as that last post would make you out to be. I know that you're going to do better.
I, personally, don't think that you would feel any differently about the system if the god weren't real (and you knew it). From that standpoint (the only standpoint that matters to me...and the one where we have a shared experience) the existence of the god is irelevent...even if true....to whether or not we should follow the system. An "argument for islam" need not include any invocation of the reality of god...imo. It isn't enhanced by it in any way. If islam, the system, were shit then we wouldn't be arguing for it either way, eh? If it isn't shit...that probably doesn't have a damned thing to do with any gods. It can stand or fall on it's own, I assume?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: General argument for Islam.
April 4, 2015 at 8:16 pm
(This post was last modified: April 4, 2015 at 8:20 pm by Mystic.)
Rhythm, the reminder in Quran is to remind us the station of proximity of his chosen ones, the higher nature of blessings, reception of divine lights, witnessing glory and beauty of God, and ascending beyond the veils of light, and sincerely exclusively remembering the place of proximity of return, and knowing the light from the darkness. We are to ascend to God, by way of struggling for hard striven remembrance of God and by love towards his chosen ones.
But this ascension doesn't occur through our own thoughts but on treading the path of those who's path is straight, those who God directly favored with himself and by which he bestows favors upon others.
While it's important to do good deeds to others, it also important when entering the higher realms to show proper etiquette, they show the way of connection (salah), glorification, bowing, and prostration, showing inward states to follow, at each stage, by appearing as lights.
As I stated in the OP, this type of guidance and leadership is not emphasized in any holy book outside of the Quran.
But it essential to connect to the higher realms, to know how to act, and we need a connection between the chained hearts and the absolute perfect, and without such a connection, the ascension to the absolute and perfect would not take place.
Islam doesn't make sense without God. It only makes sense with God, as God is the central purpose of life according to Islam.
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RE: General argument for Islam.
April 4, 2015 at 8:27 pm
(This post was last modified: April 4, 2015 at 8:27 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
-But I don't care about the quran, I believe it's claims less than I believe yours. At least, for me...there's some confidence in that you -believe- what you claim. I think that with the quran.....it's a bit more complicated.
I can see how struggling towards an ideal would lead to improvement even if the ideal was only, more plainly, an idol. I know it's worked for me - many times.
Personally, I don't think that etiquette is even applicable in our conversation You're being fucking ridiculous Mystic. It's not enough to save the drowning kid...I have to curtsy real low before I dive into the river? That gonna help me save the kid?
Fealty and genuflection as the primary concern is emphasized in a great many holy books Mystic. Including the two your own is cribbed from. I'm less surprised and impressed by this than you, clearly.
What higher realms..and why would they even matter?
So what is good in islam is only good if the god of islam exists? If it doesn't..then all of a sudden all that "goodness" just evaporates? Any particular value only "makes sense" if there's a god, an isn't....it's worthless? Remind me never to turn my back on you. Hell, remind the people around you. I don't wanna get stabbed in the damned kidney because you had a moment of doubt.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: General argument for Islam.
April 4, 2015 at 8:28 pm
Mystic, how can you tell a false prophet from a real one?
There are many false prophets.
Why do you believe Mo?
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RE: General argument for Islam.
April 4, 2015 at 8:36 pm
(April 4, 2015 at 8:28 pm)professor Wrote: Mystic, how can you tell a false prophet from a real one?
There are many false prophets.
Why do you believe Mo?
All in all anyone can be a qoute on qoute prophet when they say god talks to them.
If they pulled that BS these days more than likely people would laugh at them. So
why not do the same with the people in the bible because mental illnesses back in those
days were called demons.
Atheism is a non-prophet organization join today.
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RE: General argument for Islam.
April 4, 2015 at 8:37 pm
(This post was last modified: April 4, 2015 at 8:39 pm by professor.)
Since all of Islam is resting on the idea that Mo was a prophet, how do you know he was not false?
Dyre, let's see if Mystic replies to my question.
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RE: General argument for Islam.
April 4, 2015 at 8:49 pm
professor, I explained why in the OP.
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RE: General argument for Islam.
April 4, 2015 at 9:43 pm
You said in your OP, the proof of wisdom is in:
1) the Quran
2) the Imam
This is circular reasoning.
The Imam has the Quran as his wisdom?
So outside of the Quran, you have no justification for believing it is true.
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RE: General argument for Islam.
April 4, 2015 at 9:52 pm
Professor, you are misunderstanding.
By logic, I know out of creation, there exists those who are most good in deeds, the best of them, those who excel in goodness and are of exalted honor.
I know of the best creation, there would be those special in God's eyes.
I know by logic, that God being praiseworthy, graceful, and majestic, would honor them with is closeness, bestow upon them higher wisdom, and that they are those purified by God through out their lives, as their intentions are pure and high.
By logic, I know they are most fit for leadership, and that they wish to guide others and help others awaken from the darkness of themselves, to the light of God and ascend on the journey to God.
These leaders are no where to be found but in religion.
No book emphasizes on following such people, clinging to them, their exalted station, their purity, their sincere righteous station, and their relationship to God and to humanity, as does the Quran.
Furthermore in the spiritual world, there needs to be a connection between the eternal absolute and the imperfect chain hearts. This connection occurs through their companionship, and that such a guide and leader existing in each age, needs to be reminded in a holy book.
Aside from the OP, I argued that the false unjust authority of leaders of misguidance are to be rejected and no book emphasized on rejecting their leadership and replacing it with authority of God and his chosen ones, then the Quran.
This wisdom is uniquely emphasized in the Quran.
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RE: General argument for Islam.
April 4, 2015 at 10:01 pm
(This post was last modified: April 4, 2015 at 10:06 pm by watchamadoodle.)
(April 4, 2015 at 2:53 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: This thread is specifically about the wisdom and proofs of what is known as Wilayah, and is the foundation of the religion.
I will make a thread about Salah (the connection/daily prayers) as well was the wisdom behind fasting and hajj. As for charity I think that needs no explanation.
As for Salah, it particularly stands out, and I will talk about the wisdom of it's form and the words stated in each one.
O.k. I'll look forward to reading your ideas, so I can learn more about Islam. 
To be honest, I think a lot of the wisdom and poetry must be lost in translation. It sounds almost like a parody of wisdom. I'm sure I would appreciate the Quran more if I had an Islamic background. The words you use are English words, but they have specific meanings in Islam that I don't know. So it sounds like jibberish to me.
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