General argument for Islam.

[Mystic]

It's a shame somebody didn't tell the writers of all the embarrassing (for Muslims) hadiths that the verses were meant to be parables really.

That depends on what hadiths you look for and take from, if you look towards Sunnis sure, they take things more literally, but the Shia hadiths do give meaning as parables or metaphysical realities.

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Which verses talk about the mustafeen and say they might be forgiven for shirk?

4:98. It's translated as weak, but it doesn't mean the person is a weak person, it rather means they lack the power for reaching the truth.  In some places, mustaaf means oppressed, but here it means those who don't have the power to teach the truth.

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 say they might be forgiven for shirk?

Again, shirk is defined as knowingly associating others with God.

There is other verses that prove not all polytheists are Mushrikeen or kaffers. Do you want to discuss them or is what I shown sufficient?

[jesus_wept]

Like I said, all the embarrassing ones, which have been given ad hoc explanations to try and make the quran fit reality.

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I dont believe you answered my question on page 19 btw...

[Mystic]

Like I said, all the embarrassing ones, which have been given ad hoc explanations to try and make the quran fit reality.

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I dont believe you answered my question on page 19 btw...

You are probably aware of the polemics of the reason for war slaves of the mushrikeen but that the Quran emphasized on freeing slaves, calling it as part of the higher road. So if humanity one day frees all slaves, I think that is praised in Quran, and is not a good that we should be against.  If you want to discuss this in more detail I can, but I think you are already aware of the polemics regarding it.

As for beating the wife, that's one way to translate it, another way is to translate as "separate from them", and there is shia hadith supporting the latter as well.

[jesus_wept]

I'm aware of many of the excuses Muslims make for why their all powerful god had to bow down to the whims and barbarity of slave owners and allow slavery to continue for so long in Muslim societies.

Don't you find it a bit odd that the quran says (according to you, I didn't get this impression when I read it years ago) for humanity to one day free all slaves but it took over 1400 years for some Muslims to get the message, with others still apparently in need of the memo today, years after non Muslims had abolished slavery without any help from the quran or Allah?

If this is an example of the "wisdom" that can be found in the quran you can keep it, we're all better off without it.

And I do hope you'll forgive my ignoring your assertion that you have the correct translation of the verse about beating your wife, and the correct hadith, when all these translations disagree with you.

http://quran.com/4/34

Thanks for giving us all some good examples of the kind of ad hoc excuses for embarrassing verses I was talking about though. It's much appreciated.

[Mystic]

jesus_wept, I would discuss with you, where it that you wanted to learn. But you just want to seek fault and are not interested in a discussion.

[jesus_wept]

Pmsl.

So you've come onto a public atheist discussion board but you're not prepared to discuss your argument with someone because they want to pick fault with it, why did you even post your argument if that is the case? Did you think we'd all just agree and make you our guru or something?

[Brakeman]

Really?,

So mo didn't ride one from Mecca to Jerusalem in one night? That story is a lie?

That's the Sunni interpretation, "The holiest masjid (place of prostration)" according to Shia hadiths refers to a place in heaven. From a Shia tafsir:
 أي إلى ملكوت المسجد الأقصى الذي هو في السّماءِ كما يظهر من الأخبار الآتِيَةِ


Meaning the spiritual kingdom of holiest masjid that is in the sky just as the reports (from Imams) say that I will bring.

Could you convert the religious language to english? I can't guess at all what you are trying to say.

[Brian37]

Rhythm, the Quran is full of parables. For example, some Muslims try to do use science to talk about mountains being stabilizers.  But the name of Aaron means "Exalted Mountain" and hadiths talk these being the Imams. Like wise, there is a hidden meaning to the day and night, with the descent of light and ascension unveiling of light.

Lamps in the sky is also not referring to physical stars, but is referring to a metaphysical reality. The Quran is a book about spiritual journey to God.

In the 2nd chapter in the beginning, God says he is not ashamed of giving any parable, of a gnat or what is above that. He gives also sorts of parables. It says it's self "And we given in this Quran from all types of parables..."

Earth and sky is not literal in most places, and the 6 days creation is referring to something else, and days refers to something else. Imam Khomeini talked about this in forty hadiths but most people are unaware of the parables in the Quran.

Once again, other religions have holy books with pretty words in them too. The Koran has no special powers. 

[Mystic]

The Prophet was always holy and pure already, so he went from the holy masjid to the most holiest masjid, this is talking about his ascension towards God's proximity, and the place of two bows or closer still. There is spiritual realms, some higher then others, which are more holier then others.

[Brakeman]

The Prophet was always holy and pure already, so he went from the holy masjid to the most holiest masjid, this is talking about his ascension towards God's proximity, and the place of two bows or closer still.  There is spiritual realms, some higher then others, which are more holier then others.

"He was always holy"  

Holy means connected to god and within god's proximity already, so a holy man is already close to god.
You use these words as if there are degrees of holiness, and as if there are locations where god is and locations where he is not. If you claim that Mo was less holy in the morning and more holy at night, then you need to explain that claim.
If you claim one masjid is closer to god than another masjid, then please explain how this is. Is it by distance in feet and miles? If this is because god likes one more than the other, then explain why.

These descriptive words are excessively vague. If you mean that Mo got closer to god in his mind, then say that. If you mean Mo got closer to god by climbing so many thousands of feet in the atmosphere, then say that.