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It would still be obvious to you that you are right, even if dark forces were making you think the wrong thing though. That's kind of the point of a deluding force.
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.
April 19, 2015 at 5:32 pm (This post was last modified: April 19, 2015 at 5:40 pm by Mystic.)
Veil 2 - The chosen ones who inherited the book.
وَالَّذِي أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ مِنَ الْكِتَابِ هُوَ الْحَقُّ مُصَدِّقًا لِمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ بِعِبَادِهِ لَخَبِيرٌ بَصِيرٌ {31} That which We have revealed to thee of the Book is the Truth,- confirming what was (revealed) before it: for Allah is assuredly- with respect to His Servants - is aware, seeing. ثُمَّ أَوْرَثْنَا الْكِتَابَ الَّذِينَ اصْطَفَيْنَا مِنْ عِبَادِنَا ۖ فَمِنْهُمْ ظَالِمٌ لِنَفْسِهِ وَمِنْهُمْ مُقْتَصِدٌ وَمِنْهُمْ سَابِقٌ بِالْخَيْرَاتِ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ هُوَ الْفَضْلُ الْكَبِيرُ {32} 35:32] Then We gave the Book for an inheritance to those whom We chose from Our servants; so of them (ie. our servants) is he who is unjust to himself, and of them is he who takes a middle course, and of them is he who is foremost in deeds of goodness by Allah's permission; this is the great excellence. These verses are saying God is aware and seeing of his servants. Out of God's servants are are those who are unjust to themselves, then there are those in a middle course, then those who race ahead of all in good deeds. God picks the chosen ones from those who race ahead of all in good deeds and are foremost in good deeds. The word astafa is used 13 times, and in exactly twelve verses. In all the verses, we see meaning of exalted way above the rest, and choosing of the best, and is not simply about his will or his decision in choosing who would inherit the book. The word astafa is used in Quran regarding those whom God says "Peace be upon those servants he has chosen". Bani-Israel for example were picked as a nation for guidance, but peace is not upon them all when many of them disobeyed God and rejected Prophets. The word used for choosing bani-Israel is different then astafa but rather just shows God selected them for knowledge over the nations, but it didn't mean they were specifically chosen/exalted above others.
Now the way Sunnis read it is that "of them" refers to the chosen servants and meant by that the nation, but seeing what astafa means in Arabic and through out Quran, and who God specially chooses and exalts, that cannot be the meaning.
The Quran explains through out what is meant by the chosen ones and the word Astafa, in the one place it states there existed during Mohammad time chosen ones who inherited the book, the meaning through out Quran is disregarded.
The dark forces keep people from seeing "of them" refers to servants, as emphasized in the verse before "and God with respect to his servants is aware seeing." "Then we inherited the book to those who we chose from our servants so of them (ie. our servants)..."
Here is a list of the verses that use the same word in it's various forms, and a commentary to them:
The verb اصطفى, is used in the Qur'an many times in Quran. It refers to highly above type choosing and electing. Let's look at these twelve blessed verses.
And whom turns away from the creed of Ibrahim except whom makes himself a fool, and verily we elected/chose him in this world and verily in the next world he is the righteous.
Comment: We can see here it has a meaning of highly elected above and chosen specially type meaning. Ibrahim (as) was elected for a specially status and role due to his status and heightened above normal people by a great heightening.
And Ibrahim enjoined upon his sons and upon Yaqoun, o my sons, verily God has chosen/elected for you his religion, so do not die except while you are submissive.
Comment: We can see here again it means way above, as the true religion is deemed highly superior and way above all other religions and God elected it and made it above and chose it in that sense, not simply selected. This again is emphasizing on a great heightening and being way above type meaning.
And their Prophet said to them verily God has risen over you Talut a King, they said how does he have Authority/kingdom over us and we are more entitled to Authority then him and he has not been given abundant wealth? He said: Verily God has elected/chosen him above you, and increased abundantly him in knowledge and physique and Allah gives his Authority/kingdom to whom he pleases, and God is Spreading Knowledgeable.
Comment: We can see here that when God elects a Servant it implies he is a King over the rest and has God's Authority and must be adhered to by others. The knowledge and physique shows it's his Spiritual Essence that God has made superior and by that has elected them above others. The last line shows he has knowledge of his servants and out of his wisdom uses his elected servants and vests them with his Authority and graces people through them.
Verily Allah elected/chose Adam and Nuh and the family of Ibrahim and the family of Imran above the worlds.
Comment: Here we are reminded of the first Khalifa upon earth, Adam (as) and he was elected above other creation and through him God taught the names and he was the first Nabi. Then Nuh (as), then we are shown the family of Ibrahim (as) is also elected. We come to know the true family of Ibrahim (as) are elected high souls. The same is true of the family of Imran (as). These were made the people of their time, and they are explained to be offspring, some of them from some in the next verse. We then come to see examples of these elect souls, like Mariam (as). Again, here it means specially elected and chosen above rest type meaning once again. A towering height over the non-chosen.
We can see also here electing is related to Authority emphasized before and with mystic family and elected offspring, which has similarity to the Sign of Authority and flowing with what is said before about Talut (as).
And when the angels said: O Marium! surely Allah has elected/chosen you and purified you and elected/chosen you above the women of of the world.
Comment: Here we see again elect/chosen type meaning as in made way higher and superior sense.It's emphasized she been made pure by God as well. So we see emphasis with purity and can see the elect servants are emphasized to be pure.
O Musa verily I have elected/chosen you over the people by my messages and words so take what I have given you and be of the thankful/those whom give thanks.
Comment: We can see here the special talking to Musa (as) implied he was elected above others. This again shows the meaning of the word to be specially chosen and elected and heightened above others and made special.
God elects/chooses from his Angels Messenger and from the people, verily God is Aware Seeing.
Comment: We see it's emphasized here that God is aware and seeing, same was done in 3:34. This because God knows his Angels (as) and knows the humans as well, and elects out of them special ones, whom he uses for his messages. Again, we see electing, specially choosing type meaning.
Say: All praise is for Allah and peace is/be upon the servants he has elected/chosen, is Allah greater or what they associate?
Comment: We can see the praise belongs to God all together and the peace and tranquility is his in his elect elite Servants. We can see similarity in the tranquility found in Talut (as) with peace here being emphasized on his elect servants. They are Princes of Peace and the means towards the Tranquility. In them lies the tranquility and peace sought and longed for by humans. Part of the Sign of Authority was bringing tranquility from God, and we can see thus the light inherited from the mystic family is the peace of God brought down, and what manifests authority.
Then we inherited the book to those whom we elected/chosen of our servants, so of them (ie. servants/people) is whom is unjust to himself, and of them is whom is in the middle, and of them is whom is races ahead of all in good deeds by permission of his Lord, that is the great superiority.
Comment: The verse before similarily to other verses emphasized on God being aware and seeing of his servants. Then we see God elected out of his servants and out of his servants are one whom is unjust to himself, one whom is in the middle, and one whom races ahead of all in good deeds. In makes sense that God would use one whom is ahead of all in good deeds for his religion and elect them for a high station and vest them with his authority and manifest their station and make them means towards him. These servants inherited the book after Mohammad was given revelation. Obviously God would manifest who the chosen ones are! [37:153] أَصْطَفَى الْبَنَاتِ عَلَى الْبَنِينَ
Has he chosen/elected the daughters over the sons.
Comment: We can see here again the meaning is specially choosing above other type meaning, but this of course a height that no creature can reach, rather the highest electing and highest servants are but honored servants whom don't precede him in speech and by his command do they act as clarified by another verse clarifying he has no sons. And we can see here it means this type of meaning, but reality, is God is to high and creation is to low to be elected to such a status. We can deduce by the other verses that his elected servants are such that they don't precede God in speech and by his command do they act. This shows the elected servants in the verse before are such servants and hence sinless servants of God that act only according to his command, that is the light and authority of God embracing them.
And verily they with us of the elected/chosen, the selected/picked.
Comment: This being said about Ibrahim (as), Isaac (as) and Yaqoub (as) and before that their insight and power was emphasized as well as being focused on the next world. We can see again reminder of the mystic family of Ibrahim (as) and we see more clarification on why it was emphasized Talut (as) was superior in physique. It's because of the immense power and mighty in the souls of the Elect ones. Such are his elect ones and they have power to Spiritual Guide servants by God's permission. These 3 servants mentioned here are also emphasized else where to Imams whom guide by his Command and that they were reveal good acts and Salat and Zakat and Allah did they worship, and hence they are Guides to such inward states and beautiful and glorious actions and states they will show.
If Allah wished to have a son he would have elected/chosen from whom he created, Glorified is he, he is Allah, the One, the Supreme.
Comment: This verse like the the one about daughters, is emphasizing that God is to great to be ascribed sons and daughters. Nothing can come close to his rank. The highest ranking creation would surely be his son or sons were he to have any but he is to great for this. But again, this emphasized the meaning of his elected servants being elected above others, but here it shows that although they have immense high status, no where do they come towards the status of Allah, the Supreme, which everything is not even a dust to the universe compared to him, rather far he be above that relation as well, far greater is he above all creation.
But again, this shows the meaning of the word and it refers to specially elected and chosen and heightened and made special over others type meaning.
(April 19, 2015 at 5:18 pm)robvalue Wrote: It would still be obvious to you that you are right, even if dark forces were making you think the wrong thing though. That's kind of the point of a deluding force.
From my experience, the other view has no logical support, and is just based on illogical conjecture, and logical fallacies. For example, in the verse of "Then we inherited the book to those who we chose from our servants", it's a fallacy in that they state there is only one possible way of reading even though there is another way, and the other way is the way the word is used through out Quran. I see this nothing but dark forces trying to keep the hearts of Muslims from seeing the chosen successors of Mohammad (saw).
April 19, 2015 at 5:44 pm (This post was last modified: April 19, 2015 at 5:48 pm by Mystic.)
Right, but it doesn't mean if you are right, you have no way of knowing you aren't deluded.
Also, I've thought about this issue, and I recall how my heart felt about verses at a point even though I was aware of the logic, and I know there is Satanic attack on hearts that even believe in the family of Mohammad so as to not recite the blessed verses as they are meant, with confidence despite clear evidence they are aware of. My personal experience and my observation on humanity, is that Satan is an open enemy. His attacks on the heart and wanting to put locks from reciting verses as they ought to be recited, is no doubt a reality to me.
(April 19, 2015 at 5:44 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Right, but it doesn't mean if you are right, you have no way of knowing you aren't deluded.
That made absolutely no sense.
Now to demonstrate why you are wrong I can do so even without using religion as an example.
1. Person A claims the correct location of the bar is on street X
2. Person B claims the correct location of the bar is on street Y
3. Person C claims the correct location of the bar is on street Z
Now what do you do with those competing claims? One of them may be right or none of them could be right. So if you have an independent source outside those three claims and something outside their control that would be universal, say a GPS locator, you could determine what the facts are.
Why is it in even the same religions not even the competing sects can agree on the correct interpretation of the same book?
Why is it you and I can type on a computer?
Maybe because science is universal and religion is man made and only a placebo based on wishful thinking.
Like I said, science works because as a method is doesn't deal with personal bias.
Religion only survives on marketing and relies on personal bias.
Oh and I am nobody's servant and I don't need anyone's permission to decide for me what club I belong to whom I vote for or what god I do or do not believe in.
My only "service" is to the value of common law and human rights.
April 19, 2015 at 7:34 pm (This post was last modified: April 19, 2015 at 7:36 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Mystic...you don't -know- anything about any "satanic attacks"...buddy...cmon....come back to me....wtf is going on man? You remember your pal Rhythm..we used to have conversations....I used to think you were sane.....? When you first started in on this shit, I honestly thought you were having a go at us...I keep waiting for the winking smiley.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
April 19, 2015 at 8:36 pm (This post was last modified: April 19, 2015 at 8:38 pm by robvalue.)
Erm, mystic, all you are saying is that you are special and that you know you're not being deluded whereas other people can be deluded but not know they are being deluded.
Any reasons you give for why you are special in this way may still be part of the delusion.
Yes, you may still be right, but you have no way of knowing if you are right or merely deluded.
I'm not claiming to be special either. I could be entirely deluded about absolutely everything. I'm just pointing out that if you bring "dark forces deluding people" forward as a defence for your position, it undermines you as well.
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.
April 19, 2015 at 9:58 pm (This post was last modified: April 19, 2015 at 9:58 pm by Mudhammam.)
(April 19, 2015 at 7:34 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Mystic...you don't -know- anything about any "satanic attacks"...buddy...cmon....come back to me....wtf is going on man? You remember your pal Rhythm..we used to have conversations....I used to think you were sane.....? When you first started in on this shit, I honestly thought you were having a go at us...I keep waiting for the winking smiley.
Unfortunately the dark forces seem to be having their way with him... not "demonic spirits" though... probably just some genuinely supportive and friendly---though passively arrogant---nut jobs who pride themselves as imams and devoted seekers of truth.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
