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RE: Transubstantiation 'miracle' shenanigans
May 12, 2015 at 10:06 am
(May 11, 2015 at 5:19 pm)robvalue Wrote: It's so weird that something so weird can be seen as normal by so many.
If I look up to someone and respect them, I don't also feel the need to pretend I'm eating bits of them.
If you really respected someone, you would be eating bits of him, like normal people do! If I get just a little bit more respect for you, I will be buying a plane ticket to come and visit you to chop off a bit to eat. (For those wanting to eat bits of me, let me know, and I can send you some toenail clippings and a couple of hairs. If you are really nice, I might be able to manage a bit of dead skin.)
For a bit about the "miracle" of the opening post:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_Lanciano
For the "normal" doctrine of transubstantiation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transubstantiation
That God magically changed the observable properties for the doubting monk on one occasion does not contradict the claim that the real "substance" is always changed during the Eucharist ceremony (when properly performed, not when done by the heretics professing false religions  ).
As for anyone using the claimed miracle of Lanciano as a proof of anything, there have been so many years gone by, that it would be easy for someone to have substituted bits of a human body and blood, many times over. That anyone believes anything based on this story shows the extreme imbecility of humans.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence."
— David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X, Part I.
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RE: Transubstantiation 'miracle' shenanigans
May 12, 2015 at 10:22 am
Satandiddit to screw with the Protestants
How will we know, when the morning comes, we are still human? - 2D
Don't worry, my friend. If this be the end, then so shall it be.
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RE: Transubstantiation 'miracle' shenanigans
May 12, 2015 at 11:08 am
If a DNA test of the Jesus meat showed a human haploid, I'd convert.
The granting of a pardon is an imputation of guilt, and the acceptance a confession of it.
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RE: Transubstantiation 'miracle' shenanigans
May 13, 2015 at 7:19 pm
(This post was last modified: May 13, 2015 at 9:46 pm by Cyberman.
Edit Reason: And He divideth the reply from the quote, because He can.
)
(May 11, 2015 at 4:59 pm)Neimenovic Wrote: The alleged miracle of Lanciano has been bothering me ever since someone used it as 'proof' in an argument
Long story short, some Basilian monk/priest was having doubts about transubstsntiation, and during a service the wine and bread turned into blood and flesh for realsies, gais!!
So the story is obviously bogus and I'd rather not delve too deep into who the flesh being displayed today belonged to or what happened to them (and neither does the Vatican, ofc), but it begs the question...
If the catholics deeply believe that transubstantiation takes place every single service in the literal sense, why is this dubious tourist attraction called a 'miracle'?
Ah...this is an easy one. When the bread and wine are consecrated, the substance changes and becomes the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus. Hence the term transubstantiation. However, the accidents (the look, feel, taste, etc) of bread and wine remain. Thus, at mass Catholics receive the body and blood of Jesus in species that still look and taste like bread and wine. With me so far?
Now, the Miracle of Lanciano is that the host which most days still appears to be a normal host (made of bread) becomes actual human flesh. IOW, even the accidents become the accidents of real flesh and blood.
As for the investigation(s), you can read more about them here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_Lanciano
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RE: Transubstantiation 'miracle' shenanigans
May 13, 2015 at 9:43 pm
I'm breaking out Hitchens' Razor on that.
And please try to be more careful with your post formatting.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: Transubstantiation 'miracle' shenanigans
May 13, 2015 at 10:27 pm
(May 13, 2015 at 7:19 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Ah...this is an easy one. When the bread and wine are consecrated, the substance changes and becomes the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus. Hence the term transubstantiation. However, the accidents (the look, feel, taste, etc) of bread and wine remain. Thus, at mass Catholics receive the body and blood of Jesus in species that still look and taste like bread and wine.
So the substance changes but its appearance and taste, and everything that identifies it as that substance, stays the same. Gotcha. The fact that a substance changes (but doesn't change anything by which we would describe it) by saying some words over it doesn't trip any cognitive dissonance for you at all? You realize how patently ridiculous this assertion is, right?
(May 13, 2015 at 7:19 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: With me so far? 
"There remain four irreducible objections to religious faith: that it wholly misrepresents the origins of man and the cosmos, that because of this original error it manages to combine the maximum servility with the maximum of solipsism, that it is both the result and the cause of dangerous sexual repression, and that it is ultimately grounded on wish-thinking." ~Christopher Hitchens, god is not Great
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RE: Transubstantiation 'miracle' shenanigans
May 13, 2015 at 10:50 pm
(This post was last modified: May 13, 2015 at 10:55 pm by Randy Carson.)
(May 13, 2015 at 9:43 pm)Stimbo Wrote: I'm breaking out Hitchens' Razor on that.
And please try to be more careful with your post formatting.
My apologies. I'm obviously new and trying to figure out how the forum software works.
I'm used to seeing {quote} {/quote} around everything I am responding to.
And if there is an indent button, that would be great, too.
(May 13, 2015 at 10:27 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote: (May 13, 2015 at 7:19 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Ah...this is an easy one. When the bread and wine are consecrated, the substance changes and becomes the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus. Hence the term transubstantiation. However, the accidents (the look, feel, taste, etc) of bread and wine remain. Thus, at mass Catholics receive the body and blood of Jesus in species that still look and taste like bread and wine.
So the substance changes but its appearance and taste, and everything that identifies it as that substance, stays the same. Gotcha. The fact that a substance changes (but doesn't change anything by which we would describe it) by saying some words over it doesn't trip any cognitive dissonance for you at all? You realize how patently ridiculous this assertion is, right?
(May 13, 2015 at 7:19 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: With me so far?
Patently ridiculous? No. It's pretty straightforward.
Jesus said, "This is my body, this is my blood."
He never said, "This represents...".
Could someone explain why it appears that when I respond to two separate posts...one right after the other...they appear to merge as a single post?
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RE: Transubstantiation 'miracle' shenanigans
May 13, 2015 at 11:00 pm
(May 12, 2015 at 10:06 am)Pyrrho Wrote: (May 11, 2015 at 5:19 pm)robvalue Wrote: ...If I look up to someone and respect them, I don't also feel the need to pretend I'm eating bits of them.
If you really respected someone, you would be eating bits of him, like normal people do!
But didn't they do that on New Guinea until fairly recently? 'Twas the brain that was eaten, after the person in question had died. It allowed you to acquire a portion of the soul or essence of the departed. Until the government banned it. Then there were the prions transmitted by the practice, a human form of mad-cow disease.
(May 13, 2015 at 7:19 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Ah...this is an easy one. When the bread and wine are consecrated, the substance changes and becomes the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus. Hence the term transubstantiation. However, the accidents (the look, feel, taste, etc) of bread and wine remain...
While for Protestants neither the substance nor its accidents change. Yet for both Catholics and Protestants, it is believed that Christ sanctions and blesses the act of communion. It's kind of odd, though, the staying power of the argument over this thing. The Catholic Church, said to be clinging to "primitive" beliefs, has since 1963 gotten more progressive in the global arena, for the social gospel, than certain American Evangelical Protestant churches that are becoming increasingly parochial and political.
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RE: Transubstantiation 'miracle' shenanigans
May 13, 2015 at 11:28 pm
(This post was last modified: May 13, 2015 at 11:29 pm by SteelCurtain.)
(May 13, 2015 at 10:50 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: My apologies. I'm obviously new and trying to figure out how the forum software works.
I'm used to seeing {quote} {/quote} around everything I am responding to.
And if there is an indent button, that would be great, too. The forum default is to put the editor in MyCode formatting. You can switch it to source mode by hitting the button on the end of the second row in the editor, or by hitting Ctrl+Shift+S. Then you'll see all the BBCode tags.
(May 13, 2015 at 10:50 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Could someone explain why it appears that when I respond to two separate posts...one right after the other...they appear to merge as a single post? The forum is set up to automatically merge back to back posts with a horizontal rule between. If you post 2 hours later, it would be a new post.
(May 13, 2015 at 10:50 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Patently ridiculous? No. It's pretty straightforward.
Jesus said, "This is my body, this is my blood."
He never said, "This represents...". The assertion that this is what actually happens is patently ridiculous. Just saying "Jeebus says" carries no weight. You have made a claim that cannot be tested. You say the bread and wine changes, but its physical characteristics are not altered. By what measure has it changed, then?
Fiat assertion does not make a claim true. It's a fucking ridiculous claim, and can be dismissed as such.
"There remain four irreducible objections to religious faith: that it wholly misrepresents the origins of man and the cosmos, that because of this original error it manages to combine the maximum servility with the maximum of solipsism, that it is both the result and the cause of dangerous sexual repression, and that it is ultimately grounded on wish-thinking." ~Christopher Hitchens, god is not Great
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RE: Transubstantiation 'miracle' shenanigans
May 13, 2015 at 11:38 pm
(May 13, 2015 at 11:28 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote: (May 13, 2015 at 10:50 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: My apologies. I'm obviously new and trying to figure out how the forum software works.
I'm used to seeing {quote} {/quote} around everything I am responding to.
And if there is an indent button, that would be great, too. The forum default is to put the editor in MyCode formatting. You can switch it to source mode by hitting the button on the end of the second row in the editor, or by hitting Ctrl+Shift+S. Then you'll see all the BBCode tags.
Thanks.
Quote: (May 13, 2015 at 10:50 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Could someone explain why it appears that when I respond to two separate posts...one right after the other...they appear to merge as a single post?
The forum is set up to automatically merge back to back posts with a horizontal rule between. If you post 2 hours later, it would be a new post.
Interesting. Makes it hard to respond to multiple people in the same thread, sorta.
Quote: (May 13, 2015 at 10:50 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Patently ridiculous? No. It's pretty straightforward.
Jesus said, "This is my body, this is my blood."
He never said, "This represents...".
The assertion that this is what actually happens is patently ridiculous. Just saying "Jeebus says" carries no weight. You have made a claim that cannot be tested. You say the bread and wine changes, but its physical characteristics are not altered. By what measure has it changed, then?
Fiat assertion does not make a claim true. It's a fucking ridiculous claim, and can be dismissed as such.
If God says something, then it IS true whether you understand it or not.
So, the real issues are whether God exists and whether He said it.
If the answers to both of these questions are "yes", the rest is pretty straightforward.
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