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RE: Nature's Laws
May 15, 2015 at 4:19 pm
(This post was last modified: May 15, 2015 at 4:20 pm by Simon Moon.)
(May 15, 2015 at 4:11 pm)Freedom4me Wrote: But are individual rights assigned arbitrarily? If that is how it works, then how and why would the founders of our nation (or any nation) go about deciding on the way to form a "more just" society for all the citizens in the country? There has to be some standard for determining what is more/less just before we can "assign" individual rights. The founders of the U.S. believed that our basic individual rights are intrinsic to our humanity. No one can legitimately deprive us our rights without due process.
No, it is not arbitrary. The standard is the physical reality we all share.
We all have (more or less) the same physical bodies, inhabiting the same physical universe. From this, we can extrapolate that what I need for my well being is almost assuredly the same things as the vast majority of humanity also needs.
Life is preferable to death, health is preferable to disease, freedom is preferable to slavery, comfort is preferable to pain, etc.
It doesn't take much to figure out that, since I do not want to live in a society that is rampant with murder, theft, torture, rape, etc, it is best to create laws to prevent them, and to live by them myself.
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Nature's Laws
May 15, 2015 at 4:20 pm
(This post was last modified: May 15, 2015 at 4:23 pm by Iroscato.)
The road to establishing universal human rights (or at least, partially universal in some countries) has been long and tortuous. Please do not try and jump in and claim them as the work of an imaginary cloud man, for you insult the struggles of many humans to establish them.
http://www.humanrights.com/what-are-huma...inder.html
Oh, and welcome to the forum.
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RE: Nature's Laws
May 15, 2015 at 4:33 pm
(May 15, 2015 at 4:11 pm)Freedom4me Wrote: (May 15, 2015 at 3:15 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: We assign them.
But are individual rights assigned arbitrarily? If that is how it works, then how and why would the founders of our nation (or any nation) go about deciding on the way to form a "more just" society for all the citizens in the country? There has to be some standard for determining what is more/less just before we can "assign" individual rights. The founders of the U.S. believed that our basic individual rights are intrinsic to our humanity. No one can legitimately deprive us our rights without due process.
I guarantee that standard isn't your barbaric holy book.
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RE: Nature's Laws
May 15, 2015 at 5:04 pm
(This post was last modified: May 15, 2015 at 5:09 pm by Freedom4me.)
(May 15, 2015 at 3:38 pm)Bad Wolf Wrote: Quote:Ok, can you go through each one and explain what the prophecy actually says and how it came true in real life?
Due to the large number of posts here, I will be constrained by my limited amount of time to answer most questions only very briefly. In Isa. 53, no one seems to doubt (as far as I can tell) that this passage is describing the trial, suffering, and death of Jesus. For me, this is sufficient.
(May 15, 2015 at 3:42 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Quote:First of all, welcome aboard.
Second: there's a difference between physical laws and societal ones. Physical laws are descriptive of nature; societal laws are proscriptive towards behaviour. If nature could write proscriptive laws, wouldn't "keep off the grass" be among the top ten?
Thanks, it is an honor to be here. I like your point!
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RE: Nature's Laws
May 15, 2015 at 5:11 pm
(May 15, 2015 at 5:04 pm)Freedom4me Wrote: Due to the large number of posts here, I will be constrained by my limited amount of time to answer most questions only very briefly. In Isa. 53, no one seems to doubt (as far as I can tell) that this passage is describing the trial, suffering, and death of Jesus. For me, this is sufficient. Ok well that isn't really a prophecy. Tell you what. Explain the prophecy that you think is the most convincing. Explains to us what it means and how it came true.
'The more I learn about people the more I like my dog'- Mark Twain
'You can have all the faith you want in spirits, and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don't be an idiot. Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to put you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways.' - Dr House
“Young earth creationism is essentially the position that all of modern science, 90% of living scientists and 98% of living biologists, all major university biology departments, every major science journal, the American Academy of Sciences, and every major science organization in the world, are all wrong regarding the origins and development of life….but one particular tribe of uneducated, bronze aged, goat herders got it exactly right.” - Chuck Easttom
"If my good friend Doctor Gasparri speaks badly of my mother, he can expect to get punched.....You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others. There is a limit." - Pope Francis on freedom of speech
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RE: Nature's Laws
May 15, 2015 at 5:12 pm
(May 15, 2015 at 3:42 pm)Crossless1 Wrote: Quote:And what about Isaiah 53 causes you to believe it's a prophecy of Jesus? If you weren't already primed to believe so by centuries of previous Christian interpretation and just read the passage in context, do you think you would have ever made that interpretative stretch on your own? Have you ever consulted a knowledgeable practicing Jew -- preferably a Rabbi -- on that passage?
It is enough for me just to know that almost all of the early Christian church consisted of Jews.
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RE: Nature's Laws
May 15, 2015 at 5:13 pm
(This post was last modified: May 15, 2015 at 5:20 pm by Crossless2.0.)
(May 15, 2015 at 5:04 pm)Freedom4me Wrote: In Isa. 53, no one seems to doubt (as far as I can tell) that this passage is describing the trial, suffering, and death of Jesus. For me, this is sufficient.
What on earth do you mean "no one"? That's a Christian interpretation of Isaiah 53. The Jews don't buy it. I doubt any of the atheists here buy it. You may find it sufficient to selectively count heads ( Imagine that -- here I am, a Christian, and it turns out that other Christians believe the same interpretation I do! Who'd have thought it?), but that's not going to fly here. You should know better than that.
(May 15, 2015 at 5:12 pm)Freedom4me Wrote: It is enough for me just to know that almost all of the early Christian church consisted of Jews.
Yeah, for about a nanosecond, historically speaking, before it was effectively hijacked by Gentile converts. What evidence do you have that James, for instance, associated Jesus with Isaiah 53?
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RE: Nature's Laws
May 15, 2015 at 5:20 pm
(This post was last modified: May 15, 2015 at 5:24 pm by Simon Moon.)
(May 15, 2015 at 5:04 pm)Freedom4me Wrote: Due to the large number of posts here, I will be constrained by my limited amount of time to answer most questions only very briefly. In Isa. 53, no one seems to doubt (as far as I can tell) that this passage is describing the trial, suffering, and death of Jesus. For me, this is sufficient.
Actually, there is a lot of dispute on this.
Jews, you know, the people who's book this supposed prophecy is in, seem to dispute it. Or they would have become Christians, right?
But one of main problems with Isa. 53 has, is that it seems to be talking about Israel itself (metaphorically as a single person) as the object of Isa 53.
Many of the passages in Isa. leading up to 53 make it clear that it s Israel being discussed.
Isaiah 41:8-9, Isaiah 44:1, Isaiah 44:21, Isaiah 45:4, Isaiah 49:3, all make it clear that Israel is the suffering servant. Then we're supposed to believe, that Isa. 53 is not also talking about Israel?
Sorry, but it doesn't fit the narrative or the subject of the previous Servant Songs.
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Nature's Laws
May 15, 2015 at 5:23 pm
(This post was last modified: May 15, 2015 at 5:25 pm by robvalue.)
Do you think that is a bit of a low bar? The sequel to a book has something matching what the original book said, therefor all the supernatural claims in both books are true? Do you know how many other books this could be said about? Like, Lord of the Rings?
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RE: Nature's Laws
May 15, 2015 at 5:27 pm
(May 15, 2015 at 3:51 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Quote:The fact that humans and societies can get it wrong doesn't mean you can insert a god to get some comfortable object absolute laws.
How do we know when we've gotten something wrong? The point I'm attempting to make is that by what measure (standard) do we determine that a society got something wrong? How do we decide that the Nazis were wrong to haul the Jews away and kill millions of them? Without God, it seems to me that we are left to decide what is just or unjust by majority opinion. I think that is unacceptable given the history of even the past century. It is as though human beings are incapable of truly living up to their potential. Do you think that the past 100 years of human history shows that humans have learned anything useful about morality and how to promote justice for all?
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