Hostage to fear

[The Grand Nudger]

On doctrine, you're absolutely right. But in practice, I can give testimony that the Church really teaches that the topic of evolution is really up to the individual. 

... However ... from the same institution that threatens babies with hell.

Of course, my 9th grade biology teacher also happened to teach catechism - but his unit on evolutionary biology was flat out awesome, remember it to this day (though some of it would obviously no longer be accurate), lol.  I don't need personal testimony to know that the doctrinal position of the catholic church and the practical operation of the catholic machine are different beasts.  That's a bit of the problem, in my estimation....perhaps -why- we get catholics here excusing the machine, for their love of a fantasy -of the the machine-.  The church they so confidently know, as catholics, as the true faith.......and the church they actually -belong to- aren't the same entity.  

-Of course- they get the peedo preists and the slaver nuns, predatory apologists and shill science.  The machine positively encourages it, but the smooth operation of that machine -requires- that they offer an entirely different product to their user base.  So we get the mainline catholics, all good intention and fuzzy thoughts......because thats what -they- were told, and that's what -they- took from what they were told.  Then, the hardliners.  Real dicks that say horrible shit. Its double think like "Authoritatively, infallibly, you must hold this to be true, while practically...it's up to you...could be wrong, otherwise known as -allegory-" that seeds the ground for these people. This from the same organization that calls individual conscience "individual disobediance". Of course these fuckers are going to have a fractured thought process. They're being screwed with by those whom (and what) they hold in the highest authority and trust.

But which of the two, the mainliner or the hardliner.... is truer to the machine that catholicism is, rather than the machine they might all -wish it to be-?

You're hitting your stride awfully quick, btw...must have been bottling this up for a long time.  How did that go....ever let it slip?

[Randy Carson]

LOL, look at this shitkicker, confidently proclaiming that his "jesus" knows judaism better than jews do.  I suppose he'd have a point, if hell and sheol were the same place...but since they aren't...he just comes off like another head struck too many times by the pew.

No, sheol and gehenna are not exactly the same...gehenna is what we would refer to as hell today.

However, are there some further distinctions about them you care to make?

MY point was that as a Jew, Jesus grew up within a culture that had certain ideas about life after death that are consistent with the Christian view of Hell.

And, since Jesus was God, He was in a position to speak authoritatively on the matter of judgement of the righteous and unrighteous.

[The Grand Nudger]

No, not at all - you've got it about right, even if you only have the half of it.  Gehenna -did- become hell....though the story has just a tad bit more meat than this sentence would imply..lol.  I'm glad you at least dropped the sheol business, though.

[Spacetime]

No, sheol and gehenna are not exactly the same...gehenna is what we would refer to as hell today.

However, are there some further distinctions about them you care to make?

MY point was that as a Jew, Jesus grew up within a culture that had certain ideas about life after death that are consistent with the Christian view of Hell.

And, since Jesus was God, He was in a position to speak authoritatively on the matter of judgement of the righteous and unrighteous.

I'm really reaching now to see your posts as quantitative. I mean, really reaching.

/sigh/ Try to at least see the cliff before you walk right over it, especially when a deeper study into your own "belief system" demands it.

You just put Sheol and Gehenna on the same team. Have you *no* understanding of literary context or history?

One is a concept. The other is a geographic place on Earth that became a concept through interpretation *with no... ...zero* understanding of the other, because of that interpretation's limited historical understanding due to a political & geographic change.

It's becoming clearer that you've not studied the history and development of your own faith. I'm sorry, man. I just pushed off from the shores you are trying to argue from, when you're still out to sea... eye-glass to your face and a ship-hand dropping knots in the water.

I'm not claiming I know a lot or really anything compared to *real* theologians or historians... but I've done my due diligence in trying to make myself conform to your god's demands. In fact... much more than my due diligence.

[The Grand Nudger]

It was't that you read his post incorrectly so much as it was that in the post directly preceding it he -did- begin to make the sheol/hell argument....we are left now only with his hasty and brief correction. His knockdown argument.......

Catholics made up hell? Then what was sheol to which the OT refers more than 60 times? Huh

.... he'd realized in the span of a few minutes...was garbage.

-now here we are. His argument shitcanned, but still certain that somehow, it's point was intact. Give him a little bit, he's googling, he'll get back to us.

[Spacetime]

Look at the fucking new guy!

I really hope you dig it here, because I fucking dig having you here.

I can dig it. 

...and thank you!  I'm not doing anything special other than pointing out facts about the political & social climate of Christianity.

But... regardless... Thank you.

---

Of course, my 9th grade biology teacher also happened to teach catechism - but his unit on evolutionary biology was flat out awesome, remember it to this day (though some of it would obviously no longer be accurate), lol.  I don't need personal testimony to know that the doctrinal position of the catholic church and the practical operation of the catholic machine are different beasts.  That's a bit of the problem, in my estimation....perhaps -why- we get catholics here excusing the machine, for their love of a fantasy -of the the machine-.  The church they so confidently know, as catholics, as the true faith.......and the church they actually -belong to- aren't the same entity.  

-Of course- they get the peedo preists and the slaver nuns, predatory apologists and shill science.  The machine positively encourages it, but the smooth operation of that machine -requires- that they offer an entirely different product to their user base.  So we get the mainline catholics, all good intention and fuzzy thoughts......because thats what -they- were told, and that's what -they- took from what they were told.  Then, the hardliners.  Real dicks that say horrible shit.  Its double think like "Authoritatively, infallibly, you must hold this to be true, while practically...it's up to you...could be wrong, otherwise known as -allegory-" that seeds the ground for these people.  This from the same organization that calls individual conscience "individual disobediance".  Of course these fuckers are going to have a fractured thought process.  They're being screwed with by those whom (and what) they hold in the highest authority and trust.  

But which of the two, the mainliner or the hardliner.... is truer to the machine that catholicism is, rather than the machine they might all -wish it to be-?

Your metaphor of machine and faith is excellent.

You're hitting your stride awfully quick, btw...must have been bottling this up for a long time.  How did that go?

Not well in most cases. We're talking 4-6 hours of reading each night. Me laying in bed for another 2 debating myself with the new information I'd learned from both sides that day. Getting 4 hours of sleep. Waking up... doing it all over again... somehow squeezing time for a loving family, school, and a full-time career in there. (this for years) It's been good and bad. But it is what it is.

....ever let it slip?

My son was in trouble in Sunday school for telling his teacher that hell didn't exist then discussed the rationality behind that later that day with me before I put him to bed. Looking back?.... yeah. lololololol!

[Minimalist]

@Spacetime

Do you know how the catlicks know about hell?

They don't. They made this shit up. Pulled it right out of their asses.

These people don't know shit. They don't have any answers, to any questions, so they just dream up whatever bullshit their flock is willing to swallow. And they use it to control people.

You or I could come up with an equally probable mythology in a day and it would have the same bearing on reality as catholicism. Look at how many religions there are, all claiming to be true. It's all just people making shit up and selling it.

Religion is man made, to control other men. So is hell. They want you to be scared so you'll do whatever they tell you to be 'saved'....like a little donation to their institution

I've been there, man. This fear will fade. Like you said, life with a gun to your head is no life.

What you need to do is open your eyes and realize there's no gun.

Catholics made up hell? Then what was sheol to which the OT refers more than 60 times?  

Jesus says in Mark 9:47–48, "t is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." And in Revelation 14:11, we read: "And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

Hell is not just a theoretical possibility. Jesus warns us that real people go there. He says, "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few" (Matt. 7:13–14).

So, if Jesus had a Jewish understanding of sheol before the Catholic Church was founded, how is it that the Catholic Church made it up?

Why don't you check with a jew rather than listen to your silly catholic horseshit?


http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/...tradition/

Sheol: An Underground Abyss
The subject of death is treated inconsistently in the Bible, though most often it suggests that physical death is the end of life. This is the case with such central figures as Abraham, Moses, and Miriam.
There are, however, several biblical references to a place called Sheol (cf. Numbers 30, 33). It is described as a region “dark and deep,” “the Pit,” and “the Land of Forgetfulness,” where human beings descend after death. The suggestion is that in the netherworld of Sheol, the deceased, although cut off from God and humankind, live on in some shadowy state of existence.
While this vision of Sheol is rather bleak (setting precedents for later Jewish and Christian ideas of an underground hell) there is generally no concept of judgment or reward and punishment attached to it. In fact, the more pessimistic books of the Bible, such as Ecclesiastes and Job, insist that all of the dead go down to Sheol, whether good or evil, rich or poor, slave or free man (Job 3:11-19).

Sounds more like the rather common Greek version of Hades where the dead kind of hung out and pissed and moaned.

[Spacetime]

It was't that you read his post incorrectly so much as it was that in the post directly preceding it he -did- begin to make the sheol/hell argument....we are left now only with his hasty and brief correction.  His knockdown argument.......

Catholics made up hell? Then what was sheol to which the OT refers more than 60 times? Huh

.... he'd realized in the span of a few minutes...was garbage.

-now here we are.  His argument shitcanned, but still certain that somehow, it's point was intact.  Give him a little bit, he's googling, he'll get back to us.

Thank you for correcting me. I'll edit my edit to give him credit where none was due.

[Pyrrho]

...

Why don't you check with a jew rather than listen to your silly catholic horseshit?

...

If Christians did that, it would destroy Christianity entirely.  It all depends on them misinterpreting Jewish texts to get the results they want.  Christianity is inherently arrogant in its "interpretation" of Jewish texts.  Christians are always saying that Jews do not understand Jewish prophesy, as well as other aspects of Judaism.  It is their schtick (if you will pardon the expression).

[Spacetime]

Christianity is inherently arrogant in its "interpretation" of Jewish texts.

This.