Will Humans Have Freewill in Heaven?

[Neo-Scholastic]

Do people have the capacity to sin in heaven?

Why would they?

[The Grand Nudger]

Why would they here? Guessing it would be for the usual reason, human beings and all.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

Do people have the capacity to sin in heaven?

No, and the simple explanation to this, Chad and I both have given, all choices in heaven will be choosing one good thing or another good thing, there will be no evil choices, God's ultimate will for heaven will be absolute perfection, without any faults.

GC

God likes the best foods and wine and he loves roasting goats and beef.  Do you think he will share?

[Pizza]

So people in heaven would be psychologically unable to sin because they have no reason to sin in heaven?

[tonechaser77]

[quote='tonechaser77' pid='986687' dateline='1436477128']
All this is completely beside the point. Even if I grant you every point that you have made, what you're left with in regards to slavery is a view of moral relativism and fluidity where the system gradually regresses to the point we are at today. I just so happen to agree that this is what happened, however not by any inspiration of god. 

You agree that the god of the NT is the god of the OT right?

We are talking the differences in RELIGION/Worship/Rules Regulations. OT represents OT Judaism which is completely different for the RELIGION of Christianity. The 'Allah' of Islam is supposed to be the same God of the OT, but again the religious practices vastly differ. In the case with slavery the NT view of it Vastly differs from The OT.

And I would hope you would agree that the form of slavery practiced in the OT was horrendous and not how people should have been treated regardless of who they were.

No. I can see a need for those practices with in the time frame they were carried out/permitted. We can not employ or try and use out modern standard of 'morality' on a culture and time that far removed from our own. Survival of the Species and the eventual evolution to our current soceities could have not been possible if not for slaves. While I do feel sorry for them, they play a vital role in keeping humanity going and growing. Without them life as we know it would not be possible.

 So you would agree that god commanded or in the LEAST condoned horrendous acts in the past then. Let's hope you've forgiven him for that. 

There is nothing to forgive, because I make no qualms in identifying and accepting that my current life style would not be possible if not for the hard work of slaves. (past and present.)

The problem is that you and the biblical writers take one word (in this case the word for slavery) and assign multiple meanings from the worst possible definition to the best possible definition. What does this cause? Major confusion, which your god is not the author of, at least I thought.

There should not be confusion because one when submitting to God must be prepared to be the worst possible to the best possible example of the word slave. We must accept that word in it's entirety and be ready to be the dog meat version of the word for God. (and He does call people to be eaten by Dogs, literally) At the same time He places other slave/servants incharge of large cities and even countries. The bible uses this word to describe the complete range of what we might be called to do.

Just think; god, in his infinite wisdom and omnipotence, could have avoided all the pain and suffering caused from slavery (regardless of the what definition you use for it)  by simply adjudicating it from the very beginning. It could have been one of the 600+ laws in the Torah. Problem solved. He certainly didn't tolerate children being unruly, as they received a death sentence. Why didn't he show the same intolerance for slavery?   

Because Slavery then like now serves a purpose in human society. Pretending that slavery is not still alive and well only serves the self righteous in giving the illusion of moral superiority over those who are not ashamed in admitting the truth. It also allows those who do keep slaves the freedom to treat them virtually anyway they want because the majority of the people in society believe slaves do not exist if the word is not used. Wake Up foolish people! Just because we relable the jobs and the workers we have doing those jobs does not mean slavery is gone. Many of those very same jobs are still required by society in order to make modern life possible, we again just re lable them in the 'modern age' and poof we think slavery no longer exists because the word is not used to describe a worker and his young children hand picking a harvest, well below any type of regulated minmum wage. This goes on in the United States Now! All anyone need do is file themselves are an agricultural business and produce a crop or commodity of some kind, and all federal regulation concerning work place safty, child labor laws and minimum wage requirements no longer apply. Why? because this country could not produce food at a cost that the majority could afford.

Last I checked There is anywhere from a 100 to 900% mark up on the food we buy at the supermarket (depending on how much processing or regulation it has to go through to get to market) for example Milk is sold from the farms from anywhere from .75 to 1.25 a gallon from most dairy farms to a bulk processor. what do we pay? 4.50 to 6.25 a gallon.

I was told that to sell milk for .75 cents a gallon the farmer has to be able to produce it for .35 cents per gallon. 3/4 of which goes into the cows, feed and equipment. the rest is divided up among the employees/profit. (they get paid by the gallon, or the field, or whatever the farmer is doing to make money.) either way it is literally pennies on the dollar, and well below a living wage. so how do these people work and live if they do not own the farm? the farms subsidize housing/shanties.

What you have a relationship with is your mind and confirmation bias.

How can you possibly make that assertion if you do not know me nor the circumstances in which I have my Relationship with God if you are not genuinely working from your own confirmation bias?

That's where all this rests. As I stated before, there is no verifiable evidence for the existence of a god.

Again not true. You in your efferts to maintain this confirmation bias 'no evidence of God' Invalidate all evidence God offers, slowly narrowing what God offers to the point that demands God offer 'evidence' (Scientific manupliation of himself/To be summoned or controlled by man) that contradicts His very nature.

The Demand for the types of 'evidences' one needs for a blind scientist to confirm God would indeed prove God is not who or what He says He is.

Does this not bother you or have you not thought your demand for proof through?

The god of the gaps argument is closing by the minute and if god exists, it sure doesn't seem to care about making himself known in a way that would truly be seen and accepted by everyone.

I have asked/said this from the beginning. What about science/discovery precludes God? what in your opinion demands God must live in the gaps?

And why would he not do this? Why would he not want all to believe? Your statement about the holy spirit is merely an argument from religious experience, a self-authenticating mystical mind set. [/b]

Because As He has said many many times in scripture, 'not all of us belong to Him.' This life has been given to US apart or separated from His known glory so that we may freely choose whether or not we want to spend eternity with Him if we are called to do so.

Your system is broke. It doesn't stand up to reason and logic and I sure hope that someday you will see that.

My system only seems broke if you are trying to shoe horn it into what you personal understand of Christianity. of course it does not fit! If my understanding of God was as limited as your own what makes you think I would not have come to the same conclusion? or are you working under a confirmation bias that all who believe in God believe in a vacuum?

In the mean time, if you continue to believe, and I have no doubt that you will, I just hope that you are at least acting in a way that will help people, in our world as we know it. I may not come to agreement with you concerning god or anything spiritual but we should at least be able to work together to change the world with regards to poverty, slavery, human rights, clean water, disease eradication, etc. I wish you the best Brich. 

Absolutely, but inorder to make real progress in any of those areas we must stop tring to be politically correct/morally superior than everyone who lived before this day and time, and admit our own need and dependency on the things that keep the poor poor. that makes slaves of men, the dirty our water, and the like.

Wow, wow wow. All I can do is marvel at the insane amount of gymnastics you have put yourself through to reach these conclusions. You are so brainwashed with the delusion of you're own belief that you can't even think for yourself. You have a rationalization for absolutely everything. But then again you have to to maintain your belief. Unfortunately you are so far down the rabbit hole that it's not even worth the discussion any longer.

[robvalue]

Let me see if I can construct a generic apologetics argument:

2) God can do what he wants because no one can stop him.

3) God gets to say what is and isn't "good", because no one can stop him doing so.

4) God says everything he does is good, so it is. Because he says so.

5) God isn't constrained by logic or arguments, because he invented those in the first place. So if you think you've found a way to show that anything about god or his actions are incoherent, contradictory or impossible, you're wrong and he is right.

6) Everything is evidence that god exists. My god, that is.



So we can see by point 6 that god does exist, and by point 5 there can be freewill in heaven without contradicting sin and free will being intertwined.

Whoops, did I miss out the first part of the argument? Yes, apologists always miss out this point. Here it is:

1) I presume to speak for god.

Well, I'll stop you right there. You can presume whatever you want. If god wants to say something, let him say it. You'd think of all people he wouldn't have trouble communicating. Is he locked in a soundproof dungeon? And if so, how exactly can you hear him?

[tonechaser77]

Let me see if I can construct a generic apologetics argument:

2) God can do what he wants because no one can stop him.

3) God gets to say what is and isn't "good", because no on can stop him doing so.

4) God says everything he does is good, so it is. Because he says so.

5) God isn't constrained by logic or arguments, because he invented those in the first place. So if you think you've found a way to show that anything about god or his actions are incoherent, contradictory or impossible, you're wrong and he is right.

6) Everything is evidence that god exists. My god, that is.



So we can see by point 6 that god does exist, and by point 5 there can be freewill in heaven without contradicting sin and free will being intertwined.

Whoops, did I miss out the first part of the argument? Yes, apologists always miss out this point. Here it is:

1) I presume to speak for god.

Well, I'll stop you right there. You can presume whatever you want. If god wants to say something, let him say it. You'd think of all people he wouldn't have trouble communicating. Is he locked in a soundproof dungeon?

What scares me the most is that people like this, people like Brich for example, are of the same mindset as the most extreme supporters of Islam. And we know where that brings us to.

[Rhondazvous]

But why do we need to be regenerated? Why were we created with the desire for evil in the first place?

The better question to ask yourself is "Do I need to be regenerated?" and/or "Why do I desire to sin?"

If you don't know the answer or don't like the answer then don't be disingenuous about it. I have more respect for the person who can say he doesn't know the answer then for the person who dodges the question as you seem to be trying to do.

[Rhondazvous]

We're talking about now not when you thought you were a Christian, 25 years you were playing a game and this is why I believe what I do about you, not trying to put you down here this is what I honestly believe. If you had confessed Jesus as your savior and Lord all those years ago He would have proved to you He was real. If after that you decided you didn't like what you had found, I could believe that and slightly understand what you did. I could even understand your anger at God. You however threw away God as one would trash, claiming He doesn't exist, so how is it you can say what you do about the God you claim doesn't exist, actually why do you say the things you do about something that doesn't exist. That would be like me getting mad at the pink unicorn and throwing a temper tantrum at the very thing I do not believe exists, for me it would be a stupid and foolish thing to do, even worse it would be a total waste of my time. I just can't believe you ever had a personal relationship with God, for if you had you could not in all honesty ever deny His existence, be mad at Him for some reason yes, but to deny something you had a personal relationship with would be crazy.
want get back here before Monday, have a great weekend, talk to you soon.

GC

GC, I have only been here for 3 months and are you going to tell me my whole life story because you know my motives that I had when you did not even know I was alive? If you subscribe to the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine then that’s your belief but has nothing to do with me. I confessed Jesus as my lord and savior and the worse other Christians treated me the more tightly I clung to what I believed was my “personal relationship with god.” I am not mad at god. How can I be mad at something that I no longer believe exist? I’m not even mad at you because you are where I was (unless the truth is that you are the one who’s playing a game, pretending to be a believer when as god told the Israelites, his name is blasphemed because of you - Romans 2:24).

The rest of your post is just obfuscation and artful dodging, as anyone who reads what I said and your replies can tell.

[IATIA]

The idea of heaven is that one has no temptations to divert their free will, so things like ego (wanting to be like god) or sex (fucking the earth women) would not happen.

Oops! ... I stand corrected.