Theists, what does faith mean to you?

[Whateverist]

I don't see having faith as some sort of "blind" thing, if you will. Where you just believe in something for absolutely no reason other than because you want to or just because, or whatever.

I'm sure you are correct about that. It isn't 'blind' it just can't be supported by reason. Or perhaps it is better to say no reasonable investigation would arrive at a god if you weren't already looking for one. Or maybe I'm wrong about that. People have believed in gods for a very long time, long enough that there is something natural about it.  

At least it isn't for me. In the same way that I have faith that God is real, I have faith that my husband loves me. I can't show you any sort of concrete "proof" that my husband loves me, but I conclude that he does based on many aspects of our life together. Because of those things, it makes sense to me that he does.

I use this example too. We do routinely take on faith that for which it would be absurd to request evidence. Given the right circumstances, apparently, gods can be one of these.

I honestly don't know what I'd be like if I wasn't a woman of faith. It's such a fundamental part of me and who I am, it's impossible to tell what I'd be like without it.

I consider myself a person of faith even though I find gods entirely implausible and unnecessary - for me. So from where I sit, gods are not required for faith.

[Pyrrho]

I don't see having faith as some sort of "blind" thing, if you will. Where you just believe in something for absolutely no reason other than because you want to or just because, or whatever.  

At least it isn't for me. In the same way that I have faith that God is real, I have faith that my husband loves me. I can't show you any sort of concrete "proof" that my husband loves me, but I conclude that he does based on many aspects of our life together. Because of those things, it makes sense to me that he does.

Likewise, I conclude that God is real based on several aspects. Including a personal experience I have had, those that other people have had, based on the miracles that have been accounted for, the saints, the life of Jesus, etc... It makes sense to me. If I use the definition of faith as being a blind thing, it would take more of that type of "faith" for me not to believe in God. 

I honestly don't know what I'd be like if I wasn't a woman of faith. It's such a fundamental part of me and who I am, it's impossible to tell what I'd be like without it.

In the case of your husband, you have very good evidence that he actually exists.  You probably also have some evidence that he loves you.  My guess is, most likely, a disinterested and fair observer would recognize that you do have evidence for those ideas.

As for personal experiences for god, EVERY religion has people saying that sort of thing.  And they all have miracles attributed to them. Do you believe EVERY other religion, too?  If not, then you are being inconsistent, because even you recognize that that is worthless as evidence for every other religion that you reject.  And if it is worthless for them, it is worthless for your religion, too.

So the upshot is, you really don't have any evidence at all, and are having blind faith in your religion.

[Simon Moon]

I don't see having faith as some sort of "blind" thing, if you will. Where you just believe in something for absolutely no reason other than because you want to or just because, or whatever.  

At least it isn't for me. In the same way that I have faith that God is real, I have faith that my husband loves me. I can't show you any sort of concrete "proof" that my husband loves me, but I conclude that he does based on many aspects of our life together. Because of those things, it makes sense to me that he does.

Likewise, I conclude that God is real based on several aspects. Including a personal experience I have had, those that other people have had, based on the miracles that have been accounted for, the saints, the life of Jesus, etc... It makes sense to me. If I use the definition of faith as being a blind thing, it would take more of that type of "faith" for me not to believe in God. 

I honestly don't know what I'd be like if I wasn't a woman of faith. It's such a fundamental part of me and who I am, it's impossible to tell what I'd be like without it.

Here's one of  the problems with your analogy about your husband loving you.

Most outsiders would probably be able to tell that your husband loves you. We would most likely see: him showing you affection, treating you with respect, taking you out, sharing child rearing, taking care of you when you are sick and much more. 

There is demonstrable evidence that he loves you.  

No such similar types of evidence is demonstrable for the faith you have for your god. All we have is your word that you have had some sort of experience. That tells us nothing more. 

And more importantly, it should cause you to question why there isn't the same kind of evidence for your god, as that of  your husband's love. Especially given the errors and faulty perceptions the human mind is known to produce.

It seems to me you are using 2 different definitions for the word 'faith'.

[Catholic_Lady]

I consider myself a person of faith even though I find gods entirely implausible and unnecessary - for me.  So from where I sit, gods are not required for faith.

I really liked your whole post.

Let me just clarify this last part, when I referred to myself as a "woman of faith" I really just meant being Christian lol. I was trying to avoid using that word as not to get people riled up.

But yes, asking what I'd be like if I wasn't Christian would be the same as asking me what I'd be like if I wasn't female. It's that much a part of who I am.

I agree with you that the word "faith" doesn't necessarily have anything to do with religion.

[Catholic_Lady]

I don't see having faith as some sort of "blind" thing, if you will. Where you just believe in something for absolutely no reason other than because you want to or just because, or whatever.  

At least it isn't for me. In the same way that I have faith that God is real, I have faith that my husband loves me. I can't show you any sort of concrete "proof" that my husband loves me, but I conclude that he does based on many aspects of our life together. Because of those things, it makes sense to me that he does.

Likewise, I conclude that God is real based on several aspects. Including a personal experience I have had, those that other people have had, based on the miracles that have been accounted for, the saints, the life of Jesus, etc... It makes sense to me. If I use the definition of faith as being a blind thing, it would take more of that type of "faith" for me not to believe in God. 

I honestly don't know what I'd be like if I wasn't a woman of faith. It's such a fundamental part of me and who I am, it's impossible to tell what I'd be like without it.

In the case of your husband, you have very good evidence that he actually exists.  You probably also have some evidence that he loves you.  My guess is, most likely, a disinterested and fair observer would recognize that you do have evidence for those ideas.

As for personal experiences for god, EVERY religion has people saying that sort of thing.  And they all have miracles attributed to them. Do you believe EVERY other religion, too?  If not, then you are being inconsistent, because even you recognize that that is worthless as evidence for every other religion that you reject.  And if it is worthless for them, it is worthless for your religion, too.

So the upshot is, you really don't have any evidence at all, and are having blind faith in your religion.

You are correct on that middle part, but I can only account for my own experiences and from what I have seen and from what makes sense to me. Likewise, another woman can come up to me after my husband has passed away and say "your husband never love you, he loves ME all along." That would not, however, take away from what I have experienced with my husband and I would still have 100% faith that he loved me rather than this woman. Though I could never prove it to her in any concrete way.

[Catholic_Lady]

I don't see having faith as some sort of "blind" thing, if you will. Where you just believe in something for absolutely no reason other than because you want to or just because, or whatever.  

At least it isn't for me. In the same way that I have faith that God is real, I have faith that my husband loves me. I can't show you any sort of concrete "proof" that my husband loves me, but I conclude that he does based on many aspects of our life together. Because of those things, it makes sense to me that he does.

Likewise, I conclude that God is real based on several aspects. Including a personal experience I have had, those that other people have had, based on the miracles that have been accounted for, the saints, the life of Jesus, etc... It makes sense to me. If I use the definition of faith as being a blind thing, it would take more of that type of "faith" for me not to believe in God. 

I honestly don't know what I'd be like if I wasn't a woman of faith. It's such a fundamental part of me and who I am, it's impossible to tell what I'd be like without it.

Here's one of  the problems with your analogy about your husband loving you.

Most outsiders would probably be able to tell that your husband loves you. We would most likely see: him showing you affection, treating you with respect, taking you out, sharing child rearing, taking care of you when you are sick and much more. 

There is demonstrable evidence that he loves you.  

No such similar types of evidence is demonstrable for the faith you have for your god. All we have is your word that you have had some sort of experience. That tells us nothing more. 

And more importantly, it should cause you to question why there isn't the same kind of evidence for your god, as that of  your husband's love. Especially given the errors and faulty perceptions the human mind is known to produce.

It seems to me you are using 2 different definitions for the word 'faith'.

(my bold)

But I don't need other people telling me that he does to know he does. It's not like I wouldn't know it unless others had told me. If we were the only 2 people on earth, and there was no one else to "affirm" that he loves me, I would still have just as much faith that he does.

You are correct that it would be much easier to show someone else evidence that my husband loves me than it would to show someone else evidence that God exists. It's something they kind of have to experience for themselves to a certain extent. But the question wasn't about being able to prove my faith to others, the question was about what faith meant for me and why I believe what I do.  

Although when you say this: "No such similar types of evidence is demonstrable for the faith you have for your god." It's not really true, considering there are many other Christian people in the world who can attest for the same thing.

[Minimalist]

It is of course a rather commonly held notion by atheists that faith is an excuse theists hide behind to justify what they view as an irrational mode of thinking, a flag to be waved to elevate bad forms of thinking to the status of a virtue.

They did bring that on themselves, Tart.

Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and ... know nothing but the word of God.

- Martin Luther

There is no worse screen to block out the Spirit than confidence in our own intelligence.


John Calvin

Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand.

- St. Augustine

[Pyrrho]

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Here's one of  the problems with your analogy about your husband loving you.

Most outsiders would probably be able to tell that your husband loves you. We would most likely see: him showing you affection, treating you with respect, taking you out, sharing child rearing, taking care of you when you are sick and much more. 

There is demonstrable evidence that he loves you.  

No such similar types of evidence is demonstrable for the faith you have for your god. All we have is your word that you have had some sort of experience. That tells us nothing more. 

And more importantly, it should cause you to question why there isn't the same kind of evidence for your god, as that of  your husband's love. Especially given the errors and faulty perceptions the human mind is known to produce.

It seems to me you are using 2 different definitions for the word 'faith'.

(my bold)

---

But I don't need other people telling me that he does to know he does. It's not like I wouldn't know it unless others had told me. If we were the only 2 people on earth, and there was no one else to "affirm" that he loves me, I would still have just as much faith that he does.

...

The point is that you can tell that your husband loves you from the same things that other people could use to determine that he loves you, by seeing his actions.  That is, there is actual, real evidence that he loves you.  Anyone who is present can see how he treats you.  It is not something hidden or mysterious or nonexistent.  It is real behaviors that anyone could see if they were in the right place at the right time.  You judge that he loves you based on such things, that other people could see if they were present.  And, if it were needed (though it hardly matters whether anyone else believes he loves you or not), you could point to his behaviors and thus provide evidence of his love.  It is not a matter of blind faith, it is a matter about which you have evidence.  That is what distinguishes the example of your husband's love for you from the case regarding the existence of God.  You don't have anything real to show for God, but you do have real things to point to for your husband's love.

[Kingpin]

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(my bold)

---

But I don't need other people telling me that he does to know he does. It's not like I wouldn't know it unless others had told me. If we were the only 2 people on earth, and there was no one else to "affirm" that he loves me, I would still have just as much faith that he does.

...

The point is that you can tell that your husband loves you from the same things that other people could use to determine that he loves you, by seeing his actions.  That is, there is actual, real evidence that he loves you.  Anyone who is present can see how he treats you.  It is not something hidden or mysterious or nonexistent.  It is real behaviors that anyone could see if they were in the right place at the right time.  You judge that he loves you based on such things, that other people could see if they were present.  And, if it were needed (though it hardly matters whether anyone else believes he loves you or not), you could point to his behaviors and thus provide evidence of his love.  It is not a matter of blind faith, it is a matter about which you have evidence.  That is what distinguishes the example of your husband's love for you from the case regarding the existence of God.  You don't have anything real to show for God, but you do have real things to point to for your husband's love.

While you are right Pyrrho, I think her counter point would be just as valid.  You don't personally know CL outside of this forum.  her husband dies and she makes the claim that her husband loved her.  Can you accept her claim?  Do you think she has reasonable reasons to make the claim?  It's kind of a rough analogy, but it certainly has some merit, IMO.

[Whateverist]

But yes, asking what I'd be like if I wasn't Christian would be the same as asking me what I'd be like if I wasn't female. It's that much a part of who I am.

Well it sure is handy for peeing in the woods. Of course you don't get to go through child birth or menopause or menstruation.

I agree with you that the word "faith" doesn't necessarily have anything to do with religion.

What I really mean by that is that I think there is more to each one of us than that which is under our direct control, and, I think that part helps me out quite a bit. There is life apart from calculation.