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Theists - how certain are you that a God exists?
RE: Theists - how certain are you that a God exists?
It's pretty simple.

If you claim to be absolutely certain about anything, you are implicitly claiming that you are infallible. You're saying it's impossible for you to make a mistake or be deceived.

Everything we know about the human mind shows that not only can be the mind be fooled, it can be done so incredibly easily.

Admitting that our minds are fallible is not a weakness, it's called being intellectually honest. Claiming infallibility instantly shuts down any and all sensible conversation. It is the definition of closed mindedness.

And before the tu quoques come flying in like they always do, atheism by default isn't even a positive claim. A weak atheist doesn't even believe there is no God. (If this statement makes no sense to you, then please read the quote below from my article. It's an important point. Some members have been on this forum for years and still do not understand this.) Only a small proportion of atheists take the gnostic position, even among those who take the strong position. And even then I've never heard a single atheist ever state that they cannot be wrong.

Quote:There's actually three distinct positions, two of which are atheism. These are sometimes called weak and strong atheism. (Strong atheism sometimes gets used to mean gnostic atheism too.) For more discussion on the meaning of agnostic and gnostic, please see here. Notice that there are actually two different questions that can be asked:

Question 1: Do you have an active belief there are one or more gods?
Question 2: Do you have an active belief there are no gods?

Position 1: Y, N: Theist (could be agnostic or gnostic)
Position 2: N, N: Weak atheist (agnostic) - since this position makes no claims of belief, it cannot claim to "know for sure"!
Position 3: N, Y: Strong atheist (could be agnostic or gnostic)

Everyone is in one of those 3 positions by definition. People who say they are "just agnostic" are almost certainly in position 2. So essentially they are agnostic atheists but prefer to drop the "atheist" part. This may be because of the stigma attached to the word, or it may be because they are using different definitions for words. By the definitions I use here, agnostic is not a middle ground between theism and atheism.

Position 2 is the default position. It is undecided.
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RE: Theists - how certain are you that a God exists?
Science has made the claim to be absolutely certain about things that were later discovered to be something else entirely. Of course, science can also and does recognize its mistakes and rectifies it with the new knowledge it obtains.

Religion cannot state the same.

However, I see no quandary in making the positive claim that god does not exist, especially considering the absolute lack of evidence in relation to god in relation to more than two thousand years of faith-based claims.
"Never trust a fox. Looks like a dog, behaves like a cat."
~ Erin Hunter
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RE: Theists - how certain are you that a God exists?
I agree. Strong (not gnostic) atheism is wholly justified by the extraordinary nature of the claim, and the total absence of credible evidence. It's a very logical belief.

Gnostic atheism can also be justified, but it's a matter of defining exactly what you mean by "know". Under some definitions, it is also justified in my opinion, although I'm not fond of trying to argue that point.
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RE: Theists - how certain are you that a God exists?
(July 29, 2015 at 2:43 pm)lkingpinl Wrote:
(July 29, 2015 at 2:25 pm)Neimenovic Wrote: by all means, have your silly beliefs, talk about them and organize yourself into groups with others who share them. Please, be my guest.

Just leave the fucking kids alone.

Niemenovic, I am assuming you are referring to indoctrination.  I am a Christian, I do not go to church.  I believe the vast majority of churches and religious institutions today are akin to the Pharisees written in the Biblical times.  Arrogant, holier than though, infallible bigots.  I have 5 kids.  They ask questions and I tell them what I believe but I will never discourage them thinking for themselves.  My kids can see on my bookshelf the books of C.S. Lewis, Lee Strobel, Norman Geisler and next to them, David Hume, Immanuel Kant, Charles Darwin, Richard Dawkins.  I read them all because it absurd to listen to one view and tune out the opposing view. I look at both from an objective point of view and make my own decisions.  I don't send my kids to Bible Camp, nor do I force them to pray at night or at meals.  Maybe I'm odd and I think even other Christians will probably have an issue with my methods, but I'm not here to satisfy people.
I want to applaud your attitude to parenting, especially with regard to the part I put in bold.

Not many religious theists have the guts to own their beliefs when talking to their children, instead they teach it as fact. That is indoctrination. I wish more people would take your approach. You're telling them what you believe, not telling them what to believe.
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RE: Theists - how certain are you that a God exists?
(July 29, 2015 at 2:43 pm)lkingpinl Wrote: Niemenovic, I am assuming you are referring to indoctrination.  I am a Christian, I do not go to church.  I believe the vast majority of churches and religious institutions today are akin to the Pharisees written in the Biblical times.  Arrogant, holier than though, infallible bigots.  I have 5 kids.  They ask questions and I tell them what I believe but I will never discourage them thinking for themselves.  My kids can see on my bookshelf the books of C.S. Lewis, Lee Strobel, Norman Geisler and next to them, David Hume, Immanuel Kant, Charles Darwin, Richard Dawkins.  I read them all because it absurd to listen to one view and tune out the opposing view. I look at both from an objective point of view and make my own decisions.  I don't send my kids to Bible Camp, nor do I force them to pray at night or at meals.  Maybe I'm odd and I think even other Christians will probably have an issue with my methods, but I'm not here to satisfy people.

Well, you sir, you get a hi5. That's very admirable, and I think sensible parenting. I wish more believers would have the same attitude.

My biggest issue is with religious organizations such as the RCC institutionalizing indoctrination, as well as with parents who force their beliefs on their children.
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RE: Theists - how certain are you that a God exists?
In case anyone is wondering, Neim and I are not the same person, although we may have been separated at birth Wink
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.

Index of useful threads and discussions
Index of my best videos
Quickstart guide to the forum
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RE: Theists - how certain are you that a God exists?
(July 29, 2015 at 2:43 pm)lkingpinl Wrote:
(July 29, 2015 at 2:25 pm)Neimenovic Wrote: by all means, have your silly beliefs, talk about them and organize yourself into groups with others who share them. Please, be my guest.

Just leave the fucking kids alone.

Niemenovic, I am assuming you are referring to indoctrination.  I am a Christian, I do not go to church.  I believe the vast majority of churches and religious institutions today are akin to the Pharisees written in the Biblical times.  Arrogant, holier than though, infallible bigots.  I have 5 kids.  They ask questions and I tell them what I believe but I will never discourage them thinking for themselves.  My kids can see on my bookshelf the books of C.S. Lewis, Lee Strobel, Norman Geisler and next to them, David Hume, Immanuel Kant, Charles Darwin, Richard Dawkins.  I read them all because it absurd to listen to one view and tune out the opposing view. I look at both from an objective point of view and make my own decisions.  I don't send my kids to Bible Camp, nor do I force them to pray at night or at meals.  Maybe I'm odd and I think even other Christians will probably have an issue with my methods, but I'm not here to satisfy people.

You're the 2nd theist I've ever given kudos to. And, I've given you multiple kudos in a 24 hour period. I can't really believe it. I wish other theists could be as sensible and open-minded as you. The theists on here should be looking at you as a role model (hopefully my position doesn't change on that). Of course, unless you believe that god was justified in commanding people to murder other people, you think slaves should be beaten, that the punishment of rape should be: the victim being forced to marry the person who raped her, etc.
Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' -Isaac Asimov-
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RE: Theists - how certain are you that a God exists?
Every time I come back online and see one of your posts GC, I get the feeling only YOU are ever right (in your own mind of course). Hey, that must mean YOU are god! Guys, we have god in our midst! Seriously though, you have a very high and mighty attitude, and treat everyone here as though they're unworthy little insects. Not cool man. Your jesus would be very disappointed if he were here (and real).



I know you'll have something to say to me GC... So go on, I'm waiting, oh arrogant one.
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RE: Theists - how certain are you that a God exists?
(July 30, 2015 at 3:55 am)DarkHorse Wrote: Every time I come back online and see one of your posts GC, I get the feeling only YOU are ever right (in your own mind of course). Hey, that must mean YOU are god! Guys, we have god in our midst! Seriously though, you have a very high and mighty attitude, and treat everyone here as though they're unworthy little insects. Not cool man. Your jesus would be very disappointed if he were here (and real).



I know you'll have something to say to me GC... So go on, I'm waiting, oh arrogant one.

This as just the point I was going to make. GC is claiming omniscience, whcih I'm sure is not allowed under Christian doctrine unless you are God.
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RE: Theists - how certain are you that a God exists?
(July 30, 2015 at 3:55 am)DarkHorse Wrote: Every time I come back online and see one of your posts GC, I get the feeling only YOU are ever right (in your own mind of course). Hey, that must mean YOU are god! Guys, we have god in our midst! Seriously though, you have a very high and mighty attitude, and treat everyone here as though they're unworthy little insects. Not cool man. Your jesus would be very disappointed if he were here (and real).



I know you'll have something to say to me GC... So go on, I'm waiting, oh arrogant one.

Agreed DH.  GC at least on the surface seems to be exactly like the Pharisees in the Bible (you know the ones Jesus condemned for their attitude in Matthew 23).  He forgets that Jesus accepted all and ate with sinners and never did he preach the "turn or burn". Those that call themselves Christian and act this way are not being Christian. This is exactly why Gandhi said: "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians." I would venture to say that MOST people are turned off from Christianity, not because of Jesus, but because of people in this world that call themselves Christians.

(July 30, 2015 at 3:26 am)Salacious B. Crumb Wrote:
(July 29, 2015 at 2:43 pm)lkingpinl Wrote: Niemenovic, I am assuming you are referring to indoctrination.  I am a Christian, I do not go to church.  I believe the vast majority of churches and religious institutions today are akin to the Pharisees written in the Biblical times.  Arrogant, holier than though, infallible bigots.  I have 5 kids.  They ask questions and I tell them what I believe but I will never discourage them thinking for themselves.  My kids can see on my bookshelf the books of C.S. Lewis, Lee Strobel, Norman Geisler and next to them, David Hume, Immanuel Kant, Charles Darwin, Richard Dawkins.  I read them all because it absurd to listen to one view and tune out the opposing view. I look at both from an objective point of view and make my own decisions.  I don't send my kids to Bible Camp, nor do I force them to pray at night or at meals.  Maybe I'm odd and I think even other Christians will probably have an issue with my methods, but I'm not here to satisfy people.

You're the 2nd theist I've ever given kudos to. And, I've given you multiple kudos in a 24 hour period. I can't really believe it. I wish other theists could be as sensible and open-minded as you. The theists on here should be looking at you as a role model (hopefully my position doesn't change on that). Of course, unless you believe that god was justified in commanding people to murder other people, you think slaves should be beaten, that the punishment of rape should be: the victim being forced to marry the person who raped her, etc.

Well I suppose a thank you is appropriate but I have always found having a closed mind stops all progress.  I never said I have not wrestled with issues or perceived problems within the Christian faith and at some point we can discuss those, but suffice it to say they have not wavered my belief.
We are not made happy by what we acquire but by what we appreciate.
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