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(August 18, 2015 at 10:20 am)Spooky Wrote: I am an organism like any other. My goal is to drink as much scotch and have as much sex as I can before I wear out.
Average in my family is ~ 75.
It seems that your family wisely paces themselves rather than tries to drink as much scotch as possible all at once. Drinking is like running; there are sprinters and then there are long-distance runners. Just as runners who pace themselves can run further, so, too, can drinkers who pace themselves drink more. I generally drink wine, but I have gone through a few bottles of scotch and hope to go through a few more before I die. Yours is a worthy goal.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence."
— David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X, Part I.
Pyrrho Wrote:Why be pissed about something that you will not mind when it happens?
Because it hasn't happened yet, and I'm allowed to reserve the right to be pissed about things. It's like why be pissed about anything, if you're just gonna die in the end? wut? Look, I want to live forever and experience the breadth and depth of humanity's voyage through the universe. There are so many things we don't understand about the universe and the fact that I know I won't be around to know them is very frustrating.
Of course, you are "allowed" to be upset; who could stop you if that is your choice? You may choose to be upset and then die, instead of choosing to not be upset and then die. It is your life, and you may be as upset as you wish.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence."
— David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X, Part I.
(August 18, 2015 at 10:20 am)Spooky Wrote: I am an organism like any other. My goal is to drink as much scotch and have as much sex as I can before I wear out.
Average in my family is ~ 75.
It seems that your family wisely paces themselves rather than tries to drink as much scotch as possible all at once. Drinking is like running; there are sprinters and then there are long-distance runners. Just as runners who pace themselves can run further, so, too, can drinkers who pace themselves drink more. I generally drink wine, but I have gone through a few bottles of scotch and hope to go through a few more before I die. Yours is a worthy goal.
I have not drank enough in one sitting that I was unable to drive for about 5 years now.
One doesn't drink good wine, or good scotch simply to be intoxicated.
August 23, 2015 at 1:16 pm (This post was last modified: August 23, 2015 at 1:27 pm by Tartarus Sauce.)
I think it was Camus in the Myth of Sissyphus who argued that our brains are terrible at logically processing the existential consequences of death. We only personally understand existence from the frame point of conscious awareness, anything beyond that simply defies our experiental comprehension. Which is why everytime I go to sleep at night, time warps forward several hours, I rarely experience any awareness during those several hours since I rarely ever remember my dreams.
Therefore, although we understand death will occur, our brain tends not to factor that into its own timeline of expected experiences, consciousness can't understand its own demise as it has no reference point for comparison. Our consciousness had a beginning, we have earliest memories, but our conscienses don't really know when they "began" to exist, there are just soft limits on the record and lots of sketchy fragments in between. We lose consciousness when we sleep, but the entire experience gets erased from our timeline of awareness the moment we wake up. We simply never experience anything outside the framework of consciousness.
This limitation of consciousness means that although the intellectual component of our brain understands death will come eventually, our consciousness vehemently denies it since it has no comprehension of existential oblivion. This would explain our tendency to think and act as if we are deathless, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. It is also why belief in an afterlife is popular since most common interpretations of life after death affirm our concsiousness's view of itself as immortal.
freedomfromfallacy » I'm weighing my tears to see if the happy ones weigh the same as the sad ones.
August 23, 2015 at 2:17 pm (This post was last modified: August 23, 2015 at 2:20 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Having never been raised with the notion that death can be "gotten over", more as a brute fact of life, specifically juxtaposed with the judeo-christian notion of an eternal afterlife, or the eastern idea of subsequent lives, the OP question seems nonsensical. Death can't be "gotten over". There is no alternative. "Getting Over" on death from a psychological perspective seems similarly futile and counterproductive. That I will one day die is the driving force behind what I do in life. I have "x" amount of time to do "y", and whatever is left unaccomplished in life remains forever unaccomplished by me. I leave that to those I leave behind me, though that brings little satisfaction. I've never, personally, seen someone do more or less based upon the notion. It's difficult to for me to tell who believes in another life based upon their actions in this one. Christians duck when shots are fired - so does everyone else. I've never known an atheist who rushes towards death either. I think the question originates in the fiction, and so there is no sensible answer.
Either you are satisfied with what you have done -in this life- or you're not. You can change that, you can decide or conclude that it cannot be changed. Largely, though, seems like something that's out of our hands. If we really spent as much time in our lives fretting over death as we seem to in conversation we'd never step foot in our showers or cars (easily the most dangerous places a human being can find themselves). I don't think that we do. I think that we imagine the problem, then imagine the solutions, and all of that imagining accounts for nothing in our lives. Obviously anecdotal, but there it is, I don;t think that anyone "get's over" death, nor do I think that we expend much effort in service of that goal whether we believe it;s possible or not.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
August 23, 2015 at 2:41 pm (This post was last modified: August 23, 2015 at 2:46 pm by MTL.)
At one point in the thread, "Atheism Doesn't Equal Depression",
robvalue asked the general question of participants,
what "meaning", specifically, was it,
that people felt that believing in God, provided:
" I know religion heavily forces people to think there is no meaning without God,
but what exactly is this meaning in the first place? "
This was the answer I gave him:
" They (theists) will tell you the "meaning" is the privilege of being able to praise God for eternity, but I'm not buying it.
Ironically, I think if they were to be honest, the real "meaning" that is provided by believing in God and Heaven, is actually something that caters to some pretty base human traits:
1. Immortality, safety and comfort, for all eternity, in paradise (laziness, entitlement) 2. And, by contrast, watching those whom you deemed "sinners" be punished, for all eternity (revenge) 3. Having everything explained, sharing in God's omniscience (control) 4. And it's also the feather in your cap of knowing that YOU were "part" of God's Plan, all along (ego) IE: Heaven couldn't have occurred without you. "
robvalue replied to me:
" So to summarize, it gives meaning by making you feel really special and important. You're right, I think that is pretty much it. Feeding of the ego.
I'm quite happy to accept that ultimately I am of no importance to anything, but that I can make a very real difference in the short time available to those around me. I guess that is not enough for some people. "
I think this hits the nail on the head....if not in EVERY case, then in MANY.
I know that, personally, since leaving Christianity, I have learned my own real fallibility,
I have learned real humility, I have learned my own insignificance.
At first, to someone who has been raised believing that "God Loves Me" and that I will someday be in Heaven,
while others are in Hell,
...it was a devastating and depressing blow to my ego.
Religion, IMO, tends to breed egotism, but, very sadly,
most Theists actually believe the opposite about themselves:
They believe that they are humble
...when they are actually egotists and don't even see it.
They call themselves sinners and espouse values of not being judgmental,
but, in my experience, are far more judgmental than your average secular Joe.
It is a classic example of the 'cognitive dissonance' I see exemplified in Religion, again and again.
They call their unsubstantiated and illogical beliefs, the "TRUTH"
...and they call proven, logical truth, "LIES".
When confronted with the reality that they are not special, at all,
and that no-one is coming to "Save" them, after all,
it can be devastating, indeed.
No wonder they are so screwed up.
So, to return to the point of this thread,
ego again pertains to the answer.
You ask in your original post:
" After the huge support structure called "Religion" was taken away from your life, how did you get over the thought of everything you have ever done having no effect on the Universe as a whole. "
Again, if you were raised without ego....it doesn't matter.
You never had an inflated ego, so realizing that your life ultimately doesn't seem to make any difference,
doesn't matter.
If a former Theist is still getting over the loss of that "support structure" as you mentioned,
then perhaps realizing ego is a part of the damage incurred as a result of Theism,
is a step they haven't yet reached;
and their full transfer to Atheism is not yet complete;
the ego created by Theism still lingers, even though the Theology is gone.
The cause is removed, in other words,
but not yet all of its effects.
So, for a "recovering theist", still making the transition,
it can smart a bit, to confront these issues.
When they let go of their ego, it will hurt less.
For example:
Ironically, I now find the idea of the world carrying on without even missing me, quite comforting,
and it is focusing on this fact that will bring me solace in my last moments on Earth, I hope.
If I meet my end, laying alone in a bed in a hospital ward, as I suspect I might,
I will reflect on my own life in the days preceding my death, if I have a choice,
and I will allow myself to feel sad that it is over, of course;
(but overall I will be more happy that my life occurred, in the first place).
However, if I am allowed the clarity of mind,
in my last moments, I plan to derive comfort from meditating, specifically,
on the world carrying on as usual;
on all the mundane happenings, occurring, right that very minute,
outside the hospital walls:
I will consider the traffic passing by; the man walking his dog pressing the pedestrian signal button;
I will consider the smartly-dressed businesswoman digging in her purse for change for the parking meter;
I will consider the noisy garbage truck;
I will consider the Tim Horton's coffee shop on the corner where four teenagers are cutting class from the nearby high-school;
I will consider that someone is returning to grocery store because they realized only once they got home that they bought all the ingredients to make tacos, EXCEPT the taco-shells;
I will consider someone checking their balance slip as they walk away from an ATM;
I will consider someone getting home from work and badly needing to go pee before they do anything else;
I will consider a middle-aged man stopping at the drugstore to pick up his wife's prescription;
I know that none of these people were even aware that I ever existed,
and they will never know that I existed,
and somehow, I find it takes the drama and hurt out of the thought of imminent death;
it puts it in perspective.
Lots of people die, every day of my life, in my own city....and I've been oblivious to almost all of them.
Why should my own death be any different?
Why not just relax and not worry about it?
Worrying won't prevent death from occurring.
In a few minutes I won't be aware of anything at all.
So I'll just relax, close my eyes,
and leave this earth while listening to that one happy, busy little bee,
buzzing around in the sunshine outside my window screen.
By contrast,
my own grandmother, a devout (and miserable) Baptist,
and enormous egotist,
is in her 90s....and is "circling the drain" as my dad says...
but she has always been very defensive and utterly closed-minded about discussing the redundancy of religion,
preferring to more and more fervently and stubbornly assert her faith,
and getting increasingly agitated as time goes on;
(which, she doesn't seem to realize, indicates a LACK of faith, not a surplus)
she is obviously terrified of death because she has always been the most important thing, to herself,
and the thought of herself coming to an end, is unthinkable.
But she can't fix this, about herself,
because to fix it, you first have to recognize the problem,
and how can she recognize that the problem is her ego,
when she is labouring under the misapprehension
that she actually thinks God is the most important thing in her life?
She's never been honest with herself:
She doesn't even realize that the only reason she ever "believed in God" at all,
was not for His glory...but for her OWN.
August 23, 2015 at 2:58 pm (This post was last modified: August 23, 2015 at 3:03 pm by IATIA.)
(August 4, 2015 at 9:52 pm)Shuffle Wrote: This question is obviously directed towards my fellow atheists, hence why it is in the Atheism Sub Forum.
Anyway, how did you get over the thought of dying? After the huge support structure called "Religion" was taken away from your life, how did you get over the thought of everything you have ever done having no effect on the Universe as a whole. Or everything ever done by anyone is going to be completely destroyed by the inevitable heat death of the Universe.
Personally I feel that, because of all of our fates, it makes life even more precious. This took me a while to understand, but hopefully most of you do.
I wanted to know if our reasons matched up or differed.
Thanks!
The biggest issue for me is the means of death. I do not care to experience a long drawn out or painful transition, but I accept that death 'may' be inevitable.
The first assumption is that we exist in the first place to have a 'death'. My latest greatest worldview is that we are nothing more than shadows of possibilities and do not truly exist in the first place.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
At one point in the thread, "Atheism Doesn't Equal Depression",
robvalue asked the general question of participants,
what "meaning", specifically, was it,
that people felt that believing in God, provided:
" I know religion heavily forces people to think there is no meaning without God,
but what exactly is this meaning in the first place? "
This was the answer I gave him:
" They (theists) will tell you the "meaning" is the privilege of being able to praise God for eternity, but I'm not buying it.
Ironically, I think if they were to be honest, the real "meaning" that is provided by believing in God and Heaven, is actually something that caters to some pretty base human traits:
1. Immortality, safety and comfort, for all eternity, in paradise (laziness, entitlement) 2. And, by contrast, watching those whom you deemed "sinners" be punished, for all eternity (revenge) 3. Having everything explained, sharing in God's omniscience (control) 4. And it's also the feather in your cap of knowing that YOU were "part" of God's Plan, all along (ego) IE: Heaven couldn't have occurred without you. "
robvalue replied to me:
" So to summarize, it gives meaning by making you feel really special and important. You're right, I think that is pretty much it. Feeding of the ego.
I'm quite happy to accept that ultimately I am of no importance to anything, but that I can make a very real difference in the short time available to those around me. I guess that is not enough for some people. "
I think this hits the nail on the head....if not in EVERY case, then in MANY.
I know that, personally, since leaving Christianity, I have learned my own real fallibility,
I have learned real humility, I have learned my own insignificance.
At first, to someone who has been raised believing that "God Loves Me" and that I will someday be in Heaven,
while others are in Hell,
...it was a devastating and depressing blow to my ego.
Religion, IMO, tends to breed egotism, but, very sadly,
most Theists actually believe the opposite about themselves:
They believe that they are humble
...when they are actually egotists and don't even see it.
They call themselves sinners and espouse values of not being judgmental,
but, in my experience, are far more judgmental than your average secular Joe.
It is a classic example of the 'cognitive dissonance' I see exemplified in Religion, again and again.
They call their unsubstantiated and illogical beliefs, the "TRUTH"
...and they call proven, logical truth, "LIES".
When confronted with the reality that they are not special, at all,
and that no-one is coming to "Save" them, after all,
it can be devastating, indeed.
No wonder they are so screwed up.
So, to return to the point of this thread,
ego again pertains to the answer.
You ask in your original post:
" After the huge support structure called "Religion" was taken away from your life, how did you get over the thought of everything you have ever done having no effect on the Universe as a whole. "
Again, if you were raised without ego....it doesn't matter.
You never had an inflated ego, so realizing that your life ultimately doesn't seem to make any difference,
doesn't matter.
If a former Theist is still getting over the loss of that "support structure" as you mentioned,
then perhaps realizing ego is a part of the damage incurred as a result of Theism,
is a step they haven't yet reached;
and their full transfer to Atheism is not yet complete;
the ego created by Theism still lingers, even though the Theology is gone.
The cause is removed, in other words,
but not yet all of its effects.
So, for a "recovering theist", still making the transition,
it can smart a bit, to confront these issues.
When they let go of their ego, it will hurt less.
For example:
Ironically, I now find the idea of the world carrying on without even missing me, quite comforting,
and it is focusing on this fact that will bring me solace in my last moments on Earth, I hope.
If I meet my end, laying alone in a bed in a hospital ward, as I suspect I might,
I will reflect on my own life in the days preceding my death, if I have a choice,
and I will allow myself to feel sad that it is over, of course;
(but overall I will be more happy that my life occurred, in the first place).
However, if I am allowed the clarity of mind,
in my last moments, I plan to derive comfort from meditating, specifically,
on the world carrying on as usual;
on all the mundane happenings, occurring, right that very minute,
outside the hospital walls:
I will consider the traffic passing by; the man walking his dog pressing the pedestrian signal button;
I will consider the smartly-dressed businesswoman digging in her purse for change for the parking meter;
I will consider the noisy garbage truck;
I will consider the Tim Horton's coffee shop on the corner where four teenagers are cutting class from the nearby high-school;
I will consider that someone is returning to grocery store because they realized only once they got home that they bought all the ingredients to make tacos, EXCEPT the taco-shells;
I will consider someone checking their balance slip as they walk away from an ATM;
I will consider someone getting home from work and badly needing to go pee before they do anything else;
I will consider a middle-aged man stopping at the drugstore to pick up his wife's prescription;
I know that none of these people were even aware that I ever existed,
and they will never know that I existed,
and somehow, I find it takes the drama and hurt out of the thought of imminent death;
it puts it in perspective.
Lots of people die, every day of my life, in my own city....and I've been oblivious to almost all of them.
Why should my own death be any different?
Why not just relax and not worry about it?
Worrying won't prevent death from occurring.
In a few minutes I won't be aware of anything at all.
So I'll just relax, close my eyes,
and leave this earth while listening to that one happy, busy little bee,
buzzing around in the sunshine outside my window screen.
By contrast,
my own grandmother, a devout (and miserable) Baptist,
and enormous egotist,
is in her 90s....and is "circling the drain" as my dad says...
but she has always been very defensive and utterly closed-minded about discussing the redundancy of religion,
preferring to more and more fervently and stubbornly assert her faith,
and getting increasingly agitated as time goes on;
(which, she doesn't seem to realize, indicates a LACK of faith, not a surplus)
she is obviously terrified of death because she has always been the most important thing, to herself,
and the thought of herself coming to an end, is unthinkable.
But she can't fix this, about herself,
because to fix it, you first have to recognize the problem,
and how can she recognize that the problem is her ego,
when she is labouring under the misapprehension
that she actually thinks God is the most important thing in her life?
She's never been honest with herself:
She doesn't even realize that the only reason she ever "believed in God" at all,
was not for His glory...but for her OWN.
We are quite different on that point. I see no advantage to having lived. If I had not, I would not mind at all.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence."
— David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X, Part I.
