Hello, i am a real Christian

[Zen Badger]

You do know your saviour never existed, don't you?

[Dotard]

. I believe that the Old Testament is the embellishment of the story of a people. I do not believe in ANYTHING supernatural that happened in the Old Testament. I am not cherry picking.

[sarcasm]
Only supernatural claims in the NT are factual and not embellished. Oh no, that don't look like cherry picking to me.
[/sarcasm]

[tavarish]

These 10 top giving countries are also ALL european countries, are mostly northern countries (high life expectancy and education), and are all countries with a rich population.

So what? What does that have to do with anything we're talking about? There are rich European countries that have a religious majority, why aren't they on the top of that list in overwhelming amounts?

America is 90% Christian, and although they give the most in dollar amounts, percentage wise American people are LESS likely to donate than their European, mostly secular counterparts.

This is much more likely the cause for their generous behaviour than the fact that they are religious or not.

And you prove my point - religious people aren't necessarily more giving. There are other factors that play a part.

These numbers are not relevant. However in terms of simple case by case basis, a person is more enclined to have a certain behaviour if they believe it to be holy and sacred.

I just gave you a refutation to that argument. Please provide evidence for your assertion.

Why is it so hard for atheists to concede there is at least ONE thing good with religion ?

There are a few good things that happen as a result of religion.

1. It can instill a sense of belonging in an individual.
2. It can instill a sense of confort in an individual.
3. It can help a person through troubling times with moral guidance
4. It can help show a person how to be more altruistic.

There are a few more that I'm having trouble naming.

However, the fact you're making claims saying that religious people are necessarily more giving is horseshit, and I gave you evidence for my assertion. The fact something is comforting in a time of need doesn't mean it's necessarily true, nor does the moral guidance at the time of need serve as anything but a scare tactic to get people to straighten up and fly right.

I feel that the bad outweighs the good in modern religion. It has become a social juggernaut that is losing momentum as time progresses and the world becomes more secular, adopting values of logic and evidence over superstition and tradition.

[KichigaiNeko]

Hello all,

Some of the atheists here say that they are called by religious people "immoral", or even "sinful" and "evil".

Well, it is a fact. It does get rather redundant and you couldn't blame someone for standing up and say 'enough is enough'

But most atheists have the exact same kind of description of theists, considering them as stupid, uneducated, and feeling superior to everyone else. That is simply not accurate.

The above is also accurate, the difference is that atheists have evidence and theists do not

---

Here is my set of beliefs. This set of beliefs is shared by the vast majority of Christians. You will see that we are not as crazy as you seem to believe:

I believe that the vast majority of the Old Testament is non-factual. I believe fully in evolution, even though i think God intended our evolution from apes, in such a way as to do it according to the rules of nature. I do believe for example in Moses and the flee from Egypt, as a historical event and not with the magic bread, crossing of the red sea or the cloud of ash that showed them the way. However Noah's Ark, Adam and Eve, the man who lived 3 days inside of a whale, are all stories that could be compared with mythologies like the Greek one.

But i am a real christian in that i believe, according to the tales of the Gospels, that Jesus is the Son of God, performed miracles, and was resurrected. He had a message of peace and understanding for all of mankind, and unlike the tales of the Old Testament, in the teachings of Jesus no one is beyond redemption.

I do not condemn non-believers or believers in other religions to an eternity in Hell, i just think they havnt had the luck i had, which is to see the beautiful message of the Christ.

I see atheists as people who are disillusioned view of religion and who do not know what or who to believe, so they just reject God altogether. I can understand easily how people can be disgusted by religion. Terrorism, discrimination, pedophilia. But all of those wrongs that religion has done...are not exclusive to religion, far from it. Most of the time, "religious" genocides have for goal to find a scapegoat to appease the population, nothing more.

---

The thing is that YOUR belief system is of no interest. It is YOUR belief system. Sorry pumpkin but no one cares.

What's more religion has undeniably done some good in the world. It has united nations, given people a set of moral values that are good for the well-being of society. For hundreds of years most of the education and medicine was practiced by the Church. Finally most organizations that help the poor sick or homeless are originally Christian.

Unfortunately the above is inaccurate. Religion has done a great deal of harm within the world and is still inflicting itself on a very tired population. This is one of the issues that really gets an atheist's back up. The organisations that "help" have been doing it for 70+years and they are still no closer to bringing water to African villages nor freeing the world from starvation. But hey!! Aids has REALLY taken off in Africa thanks to xtianity!!

I am not here to convert you all, just to remind you that religion is not as harmful as you seem to think.

No religion is a crutch for the emotionally and psychically crippled...we know this as a fact...but like dandruff many have a religion and spend time and money fiddling with it.

[Edwardo Piet]

Hi True Christian, welcome.

You seem like a cool guy and thank fuck you're not a creationist.

I disagree with you that Christians have provided "moral values" - the moral values we have pre-date religion and nothing religious is required to be moral. True morals are therefore, secular IMO.

The Golden rule for example, is bloody obvious to those who have at least a decent amount of empathy, and the rule itself also predates the Bible. Confucius came up with it before Jesus was supposed to, for example.

Welcome.

EvF

[True Christian]

Well, it is a fact. It does get rather redundant and you couldn't blame someone for standing up and say 'enough is enough'

The above is also accurate, the difference is that atheists have evidence
The thing is that YOUR belief system is of no interest. It is YOUR belief system. Sorry pumpkin but no one cares.

Unfortunately the above is inaccurate. Religion has done a great deal of harm within the world and is still inflicting itself on a very tired population. This is one of the issues that really gets an atheist's back up. The organisations that "help" have been doing it for 70+years and they are still no closer to bringing water to African villages nor freeing the world from starvation. But hey!! Aids has REALLY taken off in Africa thanks to xtianity!!

No religion is a crutch for the emotionally and psychically crippled...we know this as a fact...but like dandruff many have a religion and spend time and money fiddling with it.

It is not MY belief system. It is the belief system of the VAST majority of christians, and all kinds of theists all over the world. Religion, the way i and most theists live it, is not harmful. By reading those boards it would seem that creationism is an issue. its not. In the civilised world only the US have creationists. Creationism is not even considered as a possibility by the vast majority of christians.

The Pope is considered as authority by actually a rather small percentage of christians. We are not stupid, we see the wrongdoings of the Church. To me the Church is an organization based on the promotion and spread of Jesus' message, and it is only human, so yes it makes mistakes, but they are human mistakes.

Now a little bit about Islam. Islam is NOT a violent religion. Evidence for this: since 9/11 there have been less than a dozen attacks on the "western" world by terrorist extremists. Compare that number to the HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of muslims in the world. Terrorists cant even be called a minority, because there are so very few of them.
Also before you say that as a christian i want all muslims to go to Hell. I dont. They believe in a false prophet, however they do believe in Jesus as a prophet. I hope Muslims that have the opportunity to learn can see the story of Christ and accept him as their Lord, but i dont condemn them to Hell for not doing so.

What you say about religious groups not being successful for 70 years, thats actually a good thing for religion. They dont give up and still try to help no matter what.

This is my point: the vast majority of religious people are harmless and their beliefs help them and others around them on an everyday basis. Religion is not that harmful. Religion helps me as a person. With the holy example of Christ i am shown a way to live peacefully and better the human race.

Don't hate religion, hate the few who abuse it.

[Atheist_named_Christian]

Also before you say that as a christian i want all muslims to go to Hell. I dont. They believe in a false prophet, however they do believe in Jesus as a prophet. I hope Muslims that have the opportunity to learn can see the story of Christ and accept him as their Lord, but i dont condemn them to Hell for not doing so.

So you condemn us to hell for not believing anything of this stuff?

[Paul the Human]

It is not MY belief system. It is the belief system of the VAST majority of christians, and all kinds of theists all over the world. Religion, the way i and most theists live it, is not harmful. By reading those boards it would seem that creationism is an issue. its not. In the civilised world only the US have creationists. Creationism is not even considered as a possibility by the vast majority of christians.

You are still claiming membership in the “VAST majority” of the world, which is arrogant if nothing else. It is what YOU and most Christians YOU know believe. Leave it at that.

The Pope is considered as authority by actually a rather small percentage of christians. We are not stupid, we see the wrongdoings of the Church. To me the Church is an organization based on the promotion and spread of Jesus' message, and it is only human, so yes it makes mistakes, but they are human mistakes.

The Pope’s authority only applies to the Catholic church, making this an unrelated issue.

Now a little bit about Islam. Islam is NOT a violent religion. Evidence for this: since 9/11 there have been less than a dozen attacks on the "western" world by terrorist extremists. Compare that number to the HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of muslims in the world. Terrorists cant even be called a minority, because there are so very few of them.

That is evidence that the world’s efforts to stop them has met with a little success, nothing more. Islamic Extremists are the ones who committed the deed on 9-11. The extremists in any religion tend to be violent, but those in Islam take it to barbaric levels. There is nothing to blame that on other than their religion. That doesn’t mean that most Muslims are like that, but it doesn’t have to.

Also before you say that as a christian i want all muslims to go to Hell. I dont. They believe in a false prophet, however they do believe in Jesus as a prophet. I hope Muslims that have the opportunity to learn can see the story of Christ and accept him as their Lord, but i dont condemn them to Hell for not doing so.

Sure you do. You want to convert them if possible, but those who are not ‘saved by Christ’ are doomed to hell. You may not want them to go to Hell, but you are telling them that they will.

What you say about religious groups not being successful for 70 years, thats actually a good thing for religion. They dont give up and still try to help no matter what.

This is my point: the vast majority of religious people are harmless and their beliefs help them and others around them on an everyday basis. Religion is not that harmful. Religion helps me as a person. With the holy example of Christ i am shown a way to live peacefully and better the human race.

It’s true that most Christians strive to be good people (based upon my own experience). No one is disputing that. What you are missing is that it does not take religion to motivate someone to be a good person. Those moralistic values existed long before Christ (or even the OT) did.

Don't hate religion, hate the few who abuse it.

I prefer to disparage the religion for perpetuating superstition and causing atrocities and discouraging inquiry (regardless of any good it may have also done), and not hate individuals without first judging them on their personal merits.

[True Christian]

Also before you say that as a christian i want all muslims to go to Hell. I dont. They believe in a false prophet, however they do believe in Jesus as a prophet. I hope Muslims that have the opportunity to learn can see the story of Christ and accept him as their Lord, but i dont condemn them to Hell for not doing so.

So you condemn us to hell for not believing anything of this stuff?

Hehe nice try but no

I believe everyone has a chance of redemption, even after death, as long as the person is willing to accept this chance. I hope you will see and adhere to the message of the Christ, however there is no way for me to force you to believe. I can only hope

To me its quite simple (and maybe even childish ?). Good people go to heaven. If people follow the example of the Christ, then they will be good people. Those who manage to be good people without accepting Jesus have a chance to go to Heaven if they accept him when they are judged in the Purgatory. It is the message Jesus sends.

Most of my points have been argued against, but can anyone argue that the Christ is not a fantastic role model ?

[Minimalist]

Morning, TC.

I'm still waiting for an explanation of Matthew 27.

50 And Jesus cried again with a loud voice, and yielded up his spirit.

51 And behold, the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake; and the rocks were rent;

52 and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints that had fallen asleep were raised;

53 and coming forth out of the tombs after his resurrection they entered into the holy city and appeared unto many.

This is an example of a NT "miracle." Do you accept this as factual?