Problems with Christian Church

[MTL]

I have a few questions regarding your perspectives on the church and Christianity..

**What are the big problems/issues you see in the Christian church today?

**Is your perspective of the former question from the inside (ie, your background was in church) or that of an outsider looking in? What took you away from church, if your background was church?

**What do you think about the person Jesus Christ? Is he real, historical person? Faked?

**What is the point or purpose in your life? What do you live for?

I'm especially interested in your responses to the first question!!

I only feel I have anything interesting to say about some of these questions:

First question:

Biggest problems in the Christian church is the same as all churches:  Dogma.

I have no problem with the idea of god, but religion/dogma is reprehensible.
If there IS a God, I can't imagine him having anything to do with any world religion,
Abrahamic religions most certainly included.

If there is such a thing as real Heresy,
is the practice of placing parameters onto a God when no one can prove which set of parameters is the right one.

God should be universally agreed-upon to be unknowable, and it should be regarded as blasphemy to hold up any book as "holy" or to preach what you "know" about God, unless you can PROVE it beyond all contest.

I think if there IS a god out there to be found, the very first step must be to REJECT all Religion, all dogma, all Holy Writs, all Prophets, blah blah blah.  Anything that professes itself to be truth but can't prove it.

You cannot pursue the TRUTH with any degree of integrity as long as you allow yourself to be biased by BELIEF.

Second question:  My perspective is that of a former Christian.  I am now Agnostic and Anti-Theist.

What drove me from the church was its corruption, stupidity, hypocrisy, politics and judgment.

What drove me from Religion was logic and honesty.

What conclusively drove me from Jesus Christ was a dream I had wherein Jesus cut open my chest from the inside, and slipped out, looking right at me, and left me, when only the night before I hit rock bottom and confessed my struggles with faith and begged for his peace, mercy and guidance.  I took a leap of faith, in short, and then at dawn the next day had a dream of Jesus leaving me, no explanation given.

which brings me to question 3:

I think Jesus Christ is either fictious, and my dream was my unconscious brain acknowledging that I simply couldn't continue to subscribe to a childish theory of a Deity,

OR, Jesus Christ was very much real, and DID enter my heart when I invited him to, when I was a child, but as an adult, I saw through all the BS and considered several theories...one of which might have struck a nerve; I considered that all gods, throughout history, DO exist, but are beings just like us, not the Creator, but would have us think so,
because they are actually weaker than us and jealous of us, and get all of their energy from mankind's focus, which is why our prayers are so valued by them.  So they use trickery to manipulate our fear and ignorance into believing that they are angels, or the Creator of All Things, when in fact they are weaker than us.

So, if Jesus is real at all, and he is a single entity, I think he is basically what you would call a demon.
And when I figured out his bluff, he knew it was time to get the hell out of Dodge,
and, not being truly Holy, he didn't bother to try to save face
...he just fled, like any petty exorcised demon that has been routed.

It explains the petulant, irrational, bullying behavior of all gods, throughout history, too.

But far more likely is that he just doesn't exist at all,
and my brain was telling me I don't need that fairytale anymore.

As to question 4, I feel that is too personal a question.

[Randy Carson]

OK point taken, God was haggling with Abraham not Lot. I made a mistake there.

I pointed it out, rob, to illustrate that you THINK you know Christianity and the Bible, but you don't.

You're so ignorant of these things that you don't even know what you don't know...yet, you continue posting again and again and again like you are an expert on the subject.

But howlers like this prove the opposite to be true, so why not buy a Bible and a good book on theology and learn what Christians REALLY believe before you continue embarrassing yourself?

[Randy Carson]

I don't believe the gospels got all the details right, and I'm sure that the church edited many of them heavily.  Why wouldn't they?

Oh, they did. Like throwing out 16 of them during the same Council that decided on which books are to be in the bible and whether Jesus was a god by a vote of majority. Infallibility my ass.

The Church believed that Jesus was God from the beginning. No vote was necessary on that.

[abaris]

The Church believed that Jesus was God from the beginning. No vote was necessary on that.

Which, again, is pure assumption based on single source credulity. The divinity of Jesus wasn't declared before the first council of Nicea in 325 and the council of Constantinople in 381 when the holy spirit entered the arena. It also leaves out all the non trinitarian views such as Arianism, Adoptionism, Monarchianism, and Subordinationism that existed before and afterwards.

I even found you an Ehrman quote from your favorite book

That the earliest Christians did not consider Jesus God is not a controversial point among scholars. Apart from fundamentalists and very conservative evangelicals, scholars are unified in thinking that the view that Jesus was God was a later development within Christian circles.

Check your sources, damn it.

[Randy Carson]

The Church believed that Jesus was God from the beginning. No vote was necessary on that.

Which, again, is pure assumption based on single source credulity. The divinity of Jesus wasn't declared before the first council of Nicea in 325 and the council of Constantinople in 381 when the holy spirit entered the arena. It also leaves out all the non trinitarian views such as Arianism, Adoptionism, Monarchianism, and Subordinationism that existed before and afterwards.

I even found you an Ehrman quote from your favorite book

That the earliest Christians did not consider Jesus God is not a controversial point among scholars. Apart from fundamentalists and very conservative evangelicals, scholars are unified in thinking that the view that Jesus was God was a later development within Christian circles.

Check your sources, damn it.

The Divinity of Jesus Christ Proved from Scripture

I. Did Jesus claim to be God?

1. Jesus claimed the Divine Name (‘I AM’)

Exodus 3:14
13 Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?” 14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” 15 God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘The LORD,  the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you’: this is my name for ever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.

John 8:58
53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you claim to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing; it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say that he is your God. 55 But you have not known him; I know him. If I said, I do not know him, I should be a liar like you; but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day; he saw it and was glad.” 57 The Jews then said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple.

Why did the Jews want to stone Jesus if they did not believe that He was claiming to be God?

2. Jesus claimed to be the Son of God and equal to God.

John 5:18
16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

3. Jesus claimed to be the First and the Last – a Title Reserved for God Alone

Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me.”

Revelation 1:17-18
“Do not be afraid; I [Jesus] am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.”

Would a mere prophet claim to be the “First and the Last”?

4. Jesus claimed to be Truth – not just to proclaim the truth.

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.

5. Jesus claimed to share in Divine Glory

In the Old Testament, we find that Yahweh will not share his glory with anyone.

Isaiah 42:8
“I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another.” (Cf. Isaiah 48:11—“My glory I will not give to another.”)

Yet Jesus claimed, not only that he would be glorified with the Father, but that he had glory with the Father before the world was created!

John 17:5
“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”

How can anyone see this as anything other than a claim to deity?

6. Jesus claimed to be the Messiah and the Son of God Before the Sanhedrin

Daniel 7:13-14
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Daniel prophesied that the Son of Man would be worshiped as God.

Mark 14:61-65
61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” 62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” 63 The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. 64 “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?” They all condemned him as worthy of death.

Replying to the High Priest at His trial before the Sanhedrin, Jesus quoted the Daniel and applied this prophecy to Himself.

II. Did Jesus act as God might act?

1. Jesus forgave sins – which only God can do.
Luke 5:20

2. Jesus accepted worship.
Matthew 2:2, 11
Matthew 14:33
Matthew 28:9, 17
Luke 24:52
John 9:35-38

3. Jesus did not reject worship.
Revelation 19:10 – the angel tells John to worship God only; Jesus never tells anyone not to worship Him.

III. Did Jesus’ disciples believe He was God?

1. Thomas worshipped Jesus
John 20:28-29

2. John declared that Jesus is God.
John 1:1, John 1:14

3. Paul taught that Jesus was God.

Romans 10:9-13
because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord (kurios) and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved. The scripture says, “No one who believes in him will be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all and bestows his riches upon all who call upon him. For, “every one who calls upon the name of the Lord (kurios) will be saved.”

In verse 13, Paul quotes an Old Testament prophet who was speaking about God when he wrote:

Joel 2:32
“And it shall come to pass that all who call upon the name of the LORD (kurios) shall be delivered”

Thus, in one brief passage, Paul uses the word kurios, or Lord, to speak about both the Father and the Son proving that Paul believes that Jesus is God.

4. The author of Hebrews clearly shows that the Son of God is God.

Hebrews 1:1-9
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs. 5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son;
   today I have become your Father”?
Or again,
“I will be his Father,
   and he will be my Son”?
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”
7 In speaking of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels spirits,
   and his servants flames of fire.”
8 But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
   a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
   therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
   by anointing you with the oil of joy.”

IV. Did Jesus’ enemies believe He claimed to be God?

1. The Jews tried to stone him for blasphemy.
John 8:58 – “I AM’
John 10:30-33 – second attempted stoning

2. The Sanhedrin asked Jesus if He was the Messiah and the Son of God
Mark 14:61-62 (cf. Daniel 7:13-14, Psalm 110)

V. Did the demons recognize Him as God?

Mark 1:23-24
23 Just then a man in their synagogue who was possessed by an impure spirit cried out, 24 “What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God!”

VI. Does the Bible tell us that Jesus is God?

Acts 20:28 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you guardians, to feed the church of the Lord which he obtained with his own blood.

Titus 2:13 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

2 Peter 1:1 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ

Hebrews 1:8 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
8 But of the Son he says, “Thy throne, O God,  is for ever and ever, the righteous scepter is the scepter of thy kingdom.

[abaris]

So much copy pasting without actually adressing the issue.

Scripture this and scripture that. Yes, but there's also history out there. And if it contradicts what you want to be the truth, you go lalala, I can't hear you. Obviously also with the same book of Bart Ehrman which you proudly wave around like a flag if it happens to confirm your opinions. But not if it says the polar opposite.

Here's an exotic thought. How about actually looking up all these christian groups that spread like wildfire? How about actually looking in detail at the councils of 325 and 381? Too much of an effort in copy paste wonderland?

[Randy Carson]

So much copy pasting without actually adressing the issue.

Scripture this and scripture that. Yes, but there's also history out there. And if it contradicts what you want to be the truth, you go lalala, I can't hear you. Obviously also with the same book of Bart Ehrman which you proudly wave around like a flag if it happens to confirm your opinions. But not if it says the polar opposite.

Have I ever claimed that Bart Ehrman is NOT an atheist? Of course not. There is a point beyond which he will not go, and this is not a surprise.

So, how do you get mileage out of pointing this out? You don't.

Conversely, I benefit GREATLY from being able to quote an atheist who is not only a well-known, world-class scholar but also acknowledges that Jesus did exist and openly chiding other atheists who deny this.

It just doesn't get any better than that from my vantage point.

Here's an exotic thought. How about actually looking up all these christian groups that spread like wildfire? How about actually looking in detail at the councils of 325 and 381? Too much of an effort in copy paste wonderland?

"Scripture this and scripture that."

Yep, and those scriptures provide the evidence that destroys your utterly stupid claim that "the earliest Christians did not consider Jesus God." They did.

[abaris]

Yep, and those scriptures provide the evidence that destroys your utterly stupid claim that "the earliest Christians did not consider Jesus God." They did.

Yup, we can let this stand as your admission of not being willing to actually look at historical sources. Maybe because you're scared of what you might find, maybe because your ego doesn't allow for it.

I'm sure, over at CF they will applaud your efforts at willful ignorance. And Randy, I didn't ask if you thought Ehrman to be an atheist. I only pointed at your usual cherry picking when it comes to to sources. Only to shy away when it gets a little bit to close for comfort.

[Randy Carson]

Yep, and those scriptures provide the evidence that destroys your utterly stupid claim that "the earliest Christians did not consider Jesus God." They did.

Yup, we can let this stand as your admission of not being willing to actually look at historical sources. Maybe because you're scared of what you might find, maybe because your ego doesn't allow for it.

I'm sure, over at CF they will applaud your efforts at willful ignorance. And Randy, I didn't ask if you thought Ehrman to be an atheist. I only pointed at your usual cherry picking when it comes to to sources. Only to shy away when it gets a little bit to close for comfort.

If you have the stones, join CAF yourself, and see how you fare.

[abaris]

If you have the stones, join CAF yourself, and see how you fare.

Why? As opposed to you, I've got no interest in missionary work. Believe what you like.

And I'm treating you and your so called evidence the same way I treat atheists when they post ignorant historical bullshit all over the place. For reference see the Hitler's men were all christians thread.