Your Suggestions Would Be Appreciated

[Minimalist]

Don't bother with anything that Randy says.

He's nuts.

[Napoléon]

Sorry mate, my brain went TL;DR :c

That should just be his response in email.

[Randy Carson]

1. The Rapture is a theological novelty invented by Protestants in the 1830's. Your family member is right to reject it because it is an error.

Could you suggest a place I could go to read more about this?

Sure, but you're Protestant friend will reject it because it's from a Catholic source.

The Rapture
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-rapture

[Wyrd of Gawd]

1. The Rapture is a theological novelty invented by Protestants in the 1830's. Your family member is right to reject it because it is an error.

Could you suggest a place I could go to read more about this?

---

Looks good to me.

It may be worth mentioning that Jesus brought Hell along with him, it's not mentioned in the Old Testament. Saying stuff like "Jesus wouldn't do that" is to just ignore what the book actually says. Christians are generally pretty good at that, they come up with an image of what Jesus was like (idealised version of themself) and it wouldn't matter if Jesus spent the whole time killing baby seals in the bible.

Yeah, I've heard people say that before. I've never looked into it much but I do find it hard to believe that Hell isn't mentioned in the old testament. Could you recommend any further reading on this?

In fact, where is hell first mentioned in the Bible? Is it Matthew 5:22 ""But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire."

lol, I should totally include that passage!

Actually hell, or its other names, are mentioned in Deuteronomy 32:22 https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/De...my%2032:22

[Wyrd of Gawd]

1. The Rapture is a theological novelty invented by Protestants in the 1830's. Your family member is right to reject it because it is an error.

Could you suggest a place I could go to read more about this?

---

robvalue pid='1033695' dateline='1440762944']Looks good to me.

It may be worth mentioning that Jesus brought Hell along with him, it's not mentioned in the Old Testament. Saying stuff like "Jesus wouldn't do that" is to just ignore what the book actually says. Christians are generally pretty good at that, they come up with an image of what Jesus was like (idealised version of themself) and it wouldn't matter if Jesus spent the whole time killing baby seals in the bible.

Yeah, I've heard people say that before. I've never looked into it much but I do find it hard to believe that Hell isn't mentioned in the old testament. Could you recommend any further reading on this?

In fact, where is hell first mentioned in the Bible? Is it Matthew 5:22 ""But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire."

lol, I should totally include that passage![/hide]

The idea of the rapture is expressed in Isaiah 13:3 https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Isaiah%2013:3.

A lot of the wars and conflict in the book of Revelation are based on Isaiah.  

Isaiah chapter 13 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...EV;KJV;CEV

[Hungry Hungry Hippo]

Hello everyone, thank you guys for your input, I've revised (part of) my response and am posting it below. Special thanks to you Robvalue, you were particularly helpful and I've borrowed from you quite a bit. I understand that many of you are going to go tl;dr but for those of you who aren't phased by it's length I'd love to hear your thoughts. Thanks!

Again, here's the part I'm responding to:

---
When I was becoming a Christian, I was fascinated by how many fundamentalist Christians practically slavered over the possibility that God would provide the Rapture, which meant God magically summoning all the "good" people to Heaven and damning all the evil ones to a very uncomfortable Hell (including those who had never heard of Jesus and babies). What a wonderful idea: just separate all the good people out of the world and send the rest to Hell. Well, that's when I quit being a capital C Christian and became a follower of Jesus' principles. How could anyone imagine that the Jesus who preached brotherly love and peace making would condone such a thing. It would be laughable if it weren't so easy for the believers, terribly ignorant and violent s they are, to spread their influence. Who on Earth would you condemn to death; I can't think that I would be able to condemn anyone, mostly because I have lived long enough (committed enough deadly sins myself) and known enough people intimately that I know that good and evil are both part of the Holy Spirit inside of each and every one of us.
----

"How could anyone imagine that the Jesus who preached brotherly love and peace making would condone such a thing. It would be laughable if it weren't so easy for the believers, terribly ignorant and violent s they are, to spread their influence."

Oh well it’s very interesting you should say that because I recall when I read through the New Testament I came away with a very different view of Jesus’s character. But I tell you what; I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt on this one. Here’s what I’ll do! I’m going to dust off my Bible, and read my way through the New Testament to see if it says ANYTHING that might justify the fundamentalist view that Jesus is cool with sending sinners to hell. Alright, Good ol’ Matthew! Hmmm… Reading… Reading… Reading… Nothing so far… Oh! Wait! What’s this?

Matthew 5:22: But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, “You fool!” will be liable to the hell of fire.

Huh… That’s odd, you’d expect someone as loving and forgiving as Jesus to say something along the lines of “Whoever insults his brother will be forgiven; and whoever says, ‘you fool’ will get a hug!” but here he just seems to be threatening people with damnation. Oh well, you know what, I’m sure it was probably just a slip of the tongue… Yeah, he was supposedly perfect, but hey! He was also human so I’ll let it slide…

Continuing on… Oh shit, what’s this?

Matthew 5:29 – 30: If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

Hmmm… Again, he didn’t denounce it; he just kind of told people that they’d better shape up or they’re gonna end up where it’s hot! Well, hey, as you said, Jesus was this incredibly kind, loving person, so I’m sure we won’t come across anything… Oh…

Matthew 10:28: And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Yeah, again, he’s just kind of threatening people with damnation; odd really; I don’t think I’ve ever met a loving and forgiving individual who would wish to punish someone by throwing them into a lake of fire. Yeah, I hate to say this, but this isn’t looking too good for you…

Matthew 23:15: Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.

Matthew 23:33: You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?

Boy, the other gospels don’t seem much better either…

Mark 9:43 – 47: If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell

Luke 12:5: But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!

You know maybe this just isn’t a very good place to look; I tell you what; let’s flip to a later part of the New Testament and… Ooooooohh…. That was a bad idea…

2 Thessalonians 1
God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Well hey; maybe Revelation will have a few bits on the virtue of forgiveness.

Revelation 14
And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.

Revelation 20
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The Judgment of the Dead
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

So quick recap here, all throughout the New Testament we see Jesus, who is supposedly loving and forgiving, constantly threatening people with hell and telling them how horrible it’s going to be, and at one point even sending people there himself. But to be honest, what I find most telling is what Jesus didn’t say or do. Jesus was supposedly omnipotent; with a wave of his hand he could have eliminated the damn place (no pun intended) and freed every last one of the unfortunate souls that had witnessed its horrors. He could have done this at no risk or inconvenience to himself, yet chose not to. But it actually gets worse than that because Jesus also supposedly created the universe, which would have included hell. And much to your chagrin, it actually gets EVEN WORSE because he was omniscient (and by the way, I have the Bible verses to back this all up) and he knew that billions upon billions of people would be sent there to be condemned to an unfathomably cruel punishment for all of eternity. Based off of this, one can safely conclude that Jesus certainly doesn’t mind the smell of burning sinners in the morning, just like his daddy, and to say otherwise is to completely ignore what the bible says. As much as I hate to say it, the fundamentalist Christians who you despise so much hold viewpoints that are more defendable than yours, and that being said I must admit that your bit about how they’re “terribly ignorant” is one of the most ironic things I’ve heard in weeks.

With all due respect, you’re indulging in this bad habit that I notice a lot of Christians are guilty of in which you build Jesus up into this idealized version of yourself and it wouldn’t matter if he spent the entire duration of the New testament punching babies. You know, to be honest, you aren’t a follower of Jesus, and I’m proud to say that. You’re a much better person than he was and it’s high time you recognize that.

Now, there’s just one last thing I’d like to address here. I can’t read your mind and I don’t know how you’ll respond, but if I let my past arguments with believers inform me I would imagine there’s a fair chance that you’ll come back with the “Well, Jesus died so we don’t have to go to hell” card, so I’d like to preemptively address that: I think it’s a gross misrepresentation of the actual situation. God is supposedly omnipotent and omniscient. He created a race of creatures and subjected them to a set of rules that he knew none of them would be able to live up to, rules that condemn them for simply being them; and the punishment for this transgression? They get to be burned for eternity, and I’ll reiterate that he knew full well that billions of the creatures he created would suffer this fate AS HE CHOSE TO CREATE THEM. Then, he comes to his creatures, in this case me, and tells me that through Jesus’s death, he created a loophole that will allow me to escape this fate... On the condition that I be his sycophant and tell him how great he is and give him hand jobs for all of eternity… And then he reminds me of my alternative… Your god is arguably THE most evil sickening monster in all of fiction, and it makes me so unbelievably happy that I can assert that he doesn’t exist. This is why if I ever met the god of the bible and he offered me the choice between going to heaven or hell, I would spit in his face and hold my head high as I walked through the gates of hell.

Anyways, I could honestly rant on for quite a few more pages, but I get the feeling you’ve had more than your fill at this point.

[robvalue]

Wow! Very nice takedown Jesus was tapping out halfway through that, but the ref turned a blind eye as the limb wrenching continued!

You're most welcome I'm glad I could help. Anyone is always welcome to take anything I say on the forum or on my website for help making arguments.

Jesus/God are a mirror. People look through the bible and find bits which they agree with. They ignore or make excuses for everything they don't agree with. Then they are amazed when the passages they picked out happen to match exactly the sort of things they think are correct! Honestly, I don't think most Christians are aware this is what they are doing. But Jesus/God is just themselves, how they would like to be if they could eliminate their own flaws. God manages to agree with everyone, while people disagree with each other. So God disagrees with himself; or else people aren't really getting a correct picture of what God is like.

In case all of that doesn't get through, are you aware that when Jesus was a child, he killed another child? It is recorded in one of the gospels that got removed from canon, when humans decided what was and wasn't "god's word" by deleting all the inconvenient books from inclusion in the bible. No Christian on this forum seems to want to touch this fact with a twenty foot Muhammad-on-a-stick.

[Drich]

Hey guys, a family member wrote me a statement, parts of which had to do with Christianity, and I'm going to critique it and email her back. I just wanted to run it by you guys and ask your thoughts on the matter. Do you agree with my critique? Disagree? Would you add anything in? Was I too harsh? Did I say something stupid? I'd love to hear your thoughts. And thank you guys for your input on the last thread I'd started, your help was invaluable in crafting my response as I really didn't know much about where the Christian idea of eternal torture came from. Thanks guys!

so long as you are willing to receive a critique as quickly as you give one, we are good.

Her full statement: When I was becoming a Christian, I was fascinated by how many fundamentalist Christians practically slavered over the possibility that God would provide the Rapture, which meant God magically summoning all the "good" people to Heaven and damning all the evil ones to a very uncomfortable Hell (including those who had never heard of Jesus and babies). What a wonderful idea: just separate all the good people out of the world and send the rest to Hell. Well, that's when I quit being a capital C Christian and became a follower of Jesus' principles. How could anyone imagine that the Jesus who preached brotherly love and peace making would condone such a thing. It would be laughable if it weren't so easy for the believers, terribly ignorant and violent s they are, to spread their influence. Who on Earth would you condemn to death; I can't think that I would be able to condemn anyone, mostly because I have lived long enough (committed enough deadly sins myself) and known enough people intimately that I know that good and evil are both part of the Holy Spirit inside of each and every one of us. Everybody has a choice: to forgive or seek revenge; to hate or love our enemies; to try to make something good in the world, something that makes a better world for all creation or to pursue being money-grubbing, self-centered assholes.

She has some fundamental core issues in her understanding of the final judgement and the rapture, but seeing as you did not address any of them, it does not seem you are really interested in what the bible actually says, I see no point in throw your friend under the bus. She is close enough.

(I proceeded to break it down some and address certain  parts of it)

"Well, that's when I quit being a capital C Christian and became a follower of Jesus' principles."

a "C"hristian is a follower of Christ that HE deems or judges to be Christian. Everyone one else is 'c'hristian. We can not judge ourself  'C'hristian that is Christ's job.
 

Well I would certainly hope that you’d apply some critical thinking skills to Jesus’s ideas and not blindly believe everything he said; he did after all have a number of rather stupid and immoral ideas. I can think of a few right off the top of my head. "Take no thought for tomorrow," would be an excellent example; I’ve argued with Christians who use this verse to justify abusing the environment.

If you do not live naked and in a hollowed out (through natural erosion) tree you are abusing the environment. "Take no thought of tomorrow" is what is called a verse scrap. It does not reflect the context of the message. Both of you (him for using the verse scrap as a excuse for wanting to drive cars and have electricity, and you saying the verse scrap make Jesus Immoral) are foolish and guilt of mining the bible for scraps to justify what you want to believe. This is an intellectually dishonest practice.

Another example that comes to mind would be the idea of vicarious redemption that he introduced.

So... to you redeeming people.. Is immoral? seriously? What kind of messed up version of pop morality do you subscribe to?

To tell you the truth I find the death and resurrection of Jesus to be one big spectacle of god’s immorality (not to mention a total sham).

How is resurrection immoral?

"How could anyone imagine that the Jesus who preached brotherly love and peace making would condone such a thing.

You are aware that 'peace and brotherly love' Christ taught did have it's limits right? Or is humiliating the pharaisees over and over again, and whipping the money changers in the temple were the examples of the 'brotherly' love your thinking Christ taught.

It would be laughable if it weren't so easy for the believers, terribly ignorant and violent s they are, to spread their influence."

You do know that no one in Christianity is currently waging a war to try and force belief. we are not cutting people's heads off and posting it on line. I think you've confused Christianity with another religion.

Uhh… Have you ever read the Bible?

You do realize it says retarded shit like this, right?
 
2 Thessalonians 1
6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
 
Jude 1:
7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
 
Revelation 14
11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
 
Revelation 20
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
 
The Judgment of the Dead
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Amen! Which again is consistant with the other part of Jesus' ministry that you seem to be completely ignorant about.
 

Now, I don’t know about you, but I get the feeling that if you had the opportunity to question Jesus and ask him if he thought the biblical idea of eternal torture was moral; his answer would be a resounding “yes!!” I mean, could you REALLY, HONESTLY say he would disagree with something that his own holy scripture says? And even if you could, I would still contend that it’s definitely understandable how other Christians could conclude that he would be in agreeance with the Bible’s message, after all, he did supposedly author it. The Bible is a vague book and there are many different ways in which one might interpret it that would be completely understandable. Yours is just one of many.

JESUS INTRODUCTED AND IN DETAIL DESCRIBED HELL FOR THE FIRST TIME!!
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/christiancr...bout-hell/

The above is a link to what he had to say
 

As far as that bit about believers being ignorant, the fact that you’ve seemingly overlooked the passages I pointed out makes your statement highly ironic (you’re obviously one of those Christians that likes to cherry pick from the Bible).

I would largely agree that believers are ignorant in many areas (mainly when it comes to how congruent their beliefs are with reality), but I don’t think that their immoral archaic ideas stem from ignorance of the Bible, in fact I would argue just the opposite and say their attitudes (generally) arise from a more complete understanding and acceptance of the Bible’s message; it really is an obnoxious horrible book. I applaud you for adopting a moral code better than the atrocious one advocated in the Bible, but one CAN arguably reason that Jesus would have condoned and even advocated for some pretty horrible attitudes and ideas.

yeah like forgiveness!!!
 

“I know that good and evil are both part of the Holy Spirit inside of each and every one of us.”

who are you quoting?

Please Define "holy spirit." This term is meaningless to me.

Hold on to something, because I'm about to make the meaningless, meaningful... Holy Spirit= God!

[dyresand]

[Cato]

You do know that no one in Christianity is currently waging a war to try and force belief. we are not cutting people's heads off and posting it on line. I think you've confused Christianity with another religion.

This reminds me of a scene from The Jerk where Navin, guessing people's weights at a carnival, looks at shelves of potential prizes only to limit the winner to about three inches on one particular shelf.

You took all of history off the table for obvious reasons. Issues in Ireland weren't that long ago. Serbia ring a bell? Let me guess, the U.S. magically is no longer considered a Christian nation when it drops bombs in the Middle East for the better part of two decades. I'll just assume you have no knowledge of the Christian militias in the Central Africa Republic.

Wars are never exclusively about religion, but religion has always been used by those in power to manipulate and motivate the stupid masses. You will of course offer some weasel-dicked excuse that all Christian examples don't count because of some superficial caveat such as, they weren't trying to convert anyone, they weren't real Christians, we're all sinners, et al. ad nauseam.

What you apologists (for any religion proclaiming peace) never fail to address is why your morally bankrupt systems are incapable of preventing atrocities carried out by its practitioners. Humans were busy fucking each other over long before religion emerged, but there has been no single more malicious device for extending tribalism and creating us vs. them than religion.

Wiping the Abrahamic religions off the face of the Earth is not a panacea for all our ills, but doing so would negate one huge problem-inducing facet that would no longer have to be considered and overcome. Religion is part of the problem, not the solution. It's been tried for millenia and has failed miserably. Dragging you morons into modernity is becoming exhausting.