Your thoughts on Satanism and the petition for a Satanic statue.

[Homeless Nutter]

[...]
• The devil worshipping Satanism which has nothing to do with Atheism. These people believe in everything you believe but they worship the devil instead of god. Their symbol is a pentagram like this:

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Note it has two tops pointing up. It symbolizes a goat which according to those Satanists is the face of the devil.
[...]

Uhm... Can you provide a single example of such a "devil worshiping satanist" congregation? Or any other references? Because I think that's all b*llocks - these people don't exist... Unless you count teenagers listening to death-metal and trying to upset their parents. Or the odd mentally ill person.

[paulpablo]

[...]
• The devil worshipping Satanism which has nothing to do with Atheism. These people believe in everything you believe but they worship the devil instead of god. Their symbol is a pentagram like this:

---

---

Note it has two tops pointing up. It symbolizes a goat which according to those Satanists is the face of the devil.
[...]

Uhm... Can you provide a single example of such a "devil worshiping satanist" congregation? Or any other references? Because I think that's all b*llocks - these people don't exist... Unless you count teenagers listening to death-metal and trying to upset their parents. Or the odd mentally ill person.

One thing I've heard about recently directly related to Satanism is the stories of satanic panic.  There's a very recent but not very well known story of satanic paedophile cults in England.

Basically a husband and wife split up on bad terms, then the wife with her new boyfriend coached her children into claiming that the children's biological father, along with Mcdonalds, starbucks, the social services, the church, the school and a local shoe shop were all involved in satanic paedophile rituals, killing babies, roasting them, making shoes out of their skin, having full days of school dedicated to sex and so on.  They broadcast these claims on youtube videos, but you can clearly hear the adults in the background encouraging the kids to make the claims.

There's been no evidence that any of this is true and the children actually took back all the claims they were coached to make in a properly conducted police interview, they also admitted it was their mothers new boyfriend who gave them soup with marijuana in and hurt them if they didn't keep up with the satanic claims.

There are people who believe all these satanic claims though as stupid as they may sound, the school received threats from people saying stuff on the phone like "Oh you think it's funny to eat babies do you?"

The story about it is here http://swordandscale.com/sword-and-scale-episode-51/

And if you search youtube for the name Ella Draper there's videos on there where some people believe her claims still.  Most of those people also believe in Jewish conspiracies and other things though.

[Salacious B. Crumb]

Don't be afraid to say as you feel Aroura. If CL can't respect your honest views on how stupid religion is, then she shouldn't be on an atheist forum trying to make friends. That's her problem. She's not mad about the 10 commandments being up, but mad about something that she says mocks it. Tough shit, it shouldn't be on public land. She should be mad that the 10 commandments are up there, and she should want them down, so they're not forced on everyone else, if she was a good christian.

As I said, if they were being forced on anyone else, I would want them down. I'm sorry I'm not mad that they are up. I wouldn't be mad if it was the Jewish Star up there, either. Or Buddha. Or Mohammad. Or Zeus. Or some sort of atheist symbol. As long as there is mutual respect amongst the different beliefs/ideologies, as long as no one is being treated unfairly, and as long as the laws don't change, I don't really care whether all religions are allowed to be represented on public property, or whether none of them are. So, shoot me I guess.

And you're right, I would respect Aurora's views if she said she thinks religion is stupid. She's allowed to think what she wants. If I couldn't handle the thought of someone disagreeing with me on something, I would not be here.

Those commandments are being on forced on everyone. It is illegal. People shouldn’t feel as if that’s what they’re supposed to be believing. Biblical nonsense on a court house that’s supposed to serve justice.. seriously? Justice in the bible, that’s a laugh.. People that walk through the door are bothered by it, the people that have to swear on a book of lies, are bothered by it. You have actually said that you don’t believe in a massive part of the bible. Why is it necessary to force people to do that? You know more and more people in this country don’t believe in it? So, what’s the point?

There is no mutual respect amongst religions. The people in this country only want christian iconography on public land. That’s not mutual respect. The moment someone wants to put any atheist or science plaque up, many christians lose their minds. That’s not mutual respect. Also, again, you say as long as there isn’t unfairness… There is massive unfairness. You are delusional if you cannot see this.

You say that you don’t care that if all religions are not allowed to be displayed on public property, although you don’t want the 10 commandments taken down. So, what it boils down to, is as long as it’s only your religion being displayed for all to see, it’s ok. Or, as long as all religious statues are being displayed (but not scary goatman next to a cross), it’s ok. So, you want one religion being represented, or you want court houses completely decorated on the exterior with ancient myths.

So, you’re perfectly fine with having the 10 commandments all over public buildings, and you see nothing wrong with that. How about if they weren’t the 10 commandments, how about on every court building has the baphomet displayed with 11 satanic rules. Would that bother you? Let me answer for you. YES. Wow, congratulations, you just experienced what we feel for a second. Then, how come it’s ok for you to have a religious privilege, and not the satanists? Can you see your logic yet?? Can you see how people are poking holes in it constantly?

[Esquilax]

Just saw this. Sorry, I've been side tracked tonight. 

No worries, thanks for the reasonable response. I do have one other thing to add:

Ok. I'm not entirely convinced that the statue they want to put up isn't meant to symbolize any sort of mockery or opposition to the people of faith, especially since they call themselves "Satanists." 

This is why I objected so vociferously. American christianity has this tendency, especially among the most devout, to inculcate a lack of interest in other religions, and hence a lack of knowledge. It's actually sinful to some to even learn; I don't go a solid month without hearing of some parent's group or school district seeing objections to the teaching of world religions classes, because how dare schools teach about other religions? There's no line, in a lot of christian minds, between learning about a subject and being directly indoctrinated into it (one might suggest that this simply shows how they teach their children about religion, and so they can't imagine anyone else doing differently) and the end result of all this is that, by and large, American christians are comfortable not knowing anything about other religions before they judge them. This is a stance that's remarkably easy to take in a country where christianity is dominant and even the suggestion of other religions has been studiously downplayed by the fear-mongering right for decades.

I'm not saying any of this reflects your conscious beliefs, but you're affected by it nonetheless; you hear "Satanists," and you immediately think of it as a direct response to christianity and nothing more. Your culture determines your heuristic models, and in your case American culture makes it very hard to consider religious matters outside of the framework of christianity, and this is demonstrated here; why wouldn't satanism have other figures in it besides Satan? Christianity has angels and saints and whole pantheons of biblical characters each with their own unique traits and stories, why this impulse to boil down another religion to only the words in its name?

This is what we're up against, this willingness people have to only consider the surface levels of groups and beliefs other than their own. This is what makes the Baphomet statue necessary, because if you have a greatly detailed view of your own religion but a limited understanding of the others then it's so very easy to prioritize your god to the detriment of others, which we can't have in a pluralistic society. You can already see the downward pressure that kind of thinking brings, in this assertion that the ten commandments monument isn't religious at all, it's a symbol of where the laws come from, some bastion of the American spirit. The implication is that christianity and its symbols are so ingrained in American culture that it's possible to consider them not religious, just American itself. It's a special exemption being granted because christianity is the in-group, it's normal, and all those other religions aren't a part of America.

Imagine how alienating that must be, seeing your government tell you that your beliefs aren't a part of your home. That's why we need this stuff, not because of some need to get at christianity, but because the country needs reminding that christianity is one set of beliefs in amongst all the rest, and not some integral part of the fabric of the nation. It's to the satanists' credit, in my opinion, that they didn't opt to go with a statue of Satan himself, but rather Baphomet, a symbol of peace and construction. The name means either "the father of the temple of universal peace among men," or "baptism of wisdom." It's not some evil figure, it represents the plurality and brotherhood that America is supposed to represent. E Pluribus Unum, and all that. Out of many, one.

[Catholic_Lady]

Those commandments are being on forced on everyone. It is illegal. People shouldn’t feel as if that’s what they’re supposed to be believing. Biblical nonsense on a court house that’s supposed to serve justice.. seriously? Justice in the bible, that’s a laugh.. People that walk through the door are bothered by it, the people that have to swear on a book of lies, are bothered by it. You have actually said that you don’t believe in a massive part of the bible. Why is it necessary to force people to do that? You know more and more people in this country don’t believe in it? So, what’s the point?

There is no mutual respect amongst religions. The people in this country only want christian iconography on public land. That’s not mutual respect. The moment someone wants to put any atheist  or science plaque up, many christians lose their minds. That’s not mutual respect. Also, again, you say as long as there isn’t unfairness… There is massive unfairness. You are delusional if you cannot see this.

My bold.

Right, so that needs to change. It can either change by allowing all symbols up, or by not allowing any. I don't care which it is. I don't care if it's all or none. I just care that in the end, it's fair to everyone, whatever it takes to get there.

You say that you don’t care that if all religions are not allowed to be displayed on public property, although you don’t want the 10 commandments taken down. So, what it boils down to, is as long as it’s only your religion being displayed for all to see, it’s ok. Or, as long as all religious statues are being displayed (but not scary goatman next to a cross), it’s ok. So, you want one religion being represented, or you want court houses completely decorated on the exterior with ancient myths.

So, you’re perfectly fine with having the 10 commandments all over public buildings, and you see nothing wrong with that. How about if they weren’t the 10 commandments, how about on every court building has the baphomet displayed with 11 satanic rules. Would that bother you? Let me answer for you. YES.  Wow, congratulations, you just experienced what we feel for a second. Then, how come it’s ok for you to have a religious privilege, and not the satanists? Can you see your logic yet?? Can you see how people are poking holes in it constantly?

Salacious, I've been saying repeatedly that I don't care if it gets taken down. Holly smokes.

And if you saw my last post to Esq, I said I wouldn't mind the Baphomet so long as it's true that it is it's own religious/ideological symbol and not meant to be some sort of hate symbol.

[Neo-Scholastic]

Esq, as others have said here, that statue was meant to be provocative/satirical. If they had chosen some other random creature to be their symbol, it wouldn't be offensive, which is why they chose what they did.

...their words cannot be taken as proper representation of the motives of the group. They actually explained what their motives were, and yes, they were attempting to make a point, but that doesn't make your argument here any less absurd.

They were attempting to make a point. How noble of them. Asswipes.

like christianity is the only legitimate one and all the others are just faking to defy you

Not all, just the self-identified Satanists. They are explicitly faking it purely as an act of defiance. Gee, Esq., don’t let the facts get in the way of your bullshit.

... what Baphomet does there isn't to make you think of Satan, it's to demonstrate just how willing you christians are to misunderstand.

So you agree that they’re being disingenuous by selecting a symbol they know resembles the devil to represent their pretend religion and using it to express their hatred for the followers of Christ...and you’re standing up as the apologist for this bigotry.

[TheRocketSurgeon]

... what Baphomet does there isn't to make you think of Satan, it's to demonstrate just how willing you christians are to misunderstand.

So you agree that they’re being disingenuous by selecting a symbol they know resembles the devil to represent their pretend religion and using it to express their hatred for the followers of Christ...and you’re standing up as the apologist for this bigotry.

Thank you for the demonstration, Chad.

[abaris]

They were attempting to make a point. How noble of them. Asswipes.

Oh, sure, they're asswipes, whereas the ones actually breaking the law belong to the gentry, I suspect.

[Crossless2.0]

Disingenuous, Chad? You're worried about people being disingenuous about their motives for erecting a religious statue/monument on public grounds?

Fine. What about the disingenuous asswipes who pretend that your Ten Commandments had a significant part in forming the legal basis of our constitutional republic? You know which commandments I'm talking about: the ones that contain all of those unconstitutional divine orders.

Asswipe.

[Esquilax]

They were attempting to make a point. How noble of them. Asswipes.

Yeah, because there's absolutely no ideological message intended in plastering the landscape with christian iconography and then asserting that those icons represent the origins of the laws of the land, right?

Not all, just the self-identified Satanists. They are explicitly faking it purely as an act of defiance. Gee, Esq., don’t let the facts get in the way of your bullshit.

So when I specifically stated, in the post you are replying to, that Baphomet and what it represents is even a suitable figure for "satirical Satanists out to make a point," I guess you just decided not to read that bit? I guess it would get in the way of yet another condescending insult, so it's no wonder, but are you actually under the delusion that you're responding to my posts when you selectively filter out bits like that?

My point remains the same anyway, that Satanism has a culture and figures of its own, but that christianity is all too willing to reduce all of that to a direct attack upon them and nothing else. It's self-centered, is what it is, and you only confirm that when you decide that it's an "act of defiance," rather than a cogent point to be made about the separation of church and state. It can't just be literally the thing they said it was in their press release, it has to be about you.

So you agree that they’re being disingenuous by selecting a symbol they know resembles the devil to represent their pretend religion and using it to express their hatred for the followers of Christ...and you’re standing up as the apologist for this bigotry.

No, I'm saying that christianity doesn't have ownership over goat-humanoid creatures, especially in light of the fact that christianity itself stole its devil figures from earlier archetypes. It doesn't matter whether something resembles the devil or not because the devil is not the baseline from which all other similar figures originated. You don't get to dictate how something is to be taken just because you have one in a long line of goat-horned human characters that you somehow think deserves special emphasis as the root of them all.

That, and my earlier point about the egocentric nature of christians regarding having to share space with other religions... which you're still demonstrating to be true by making this about attacking your religion, rather than equal representation. Good job proving my points, Chad.