Abortion is love

[John V]

....which only brings us back to Rob's point. Why would an abortion matter then? I mean, to you, it's no different if you die as a 40yo, 80yo or two cells, and you get to an afterlife anyway.

Speaking of disingenuous, you're pretending that we're brought back to a point which I've already addressed:

"Even if we accept your argument, you're missing that love of others is the second greatest commandment. The greatest is love of god, and he said to multiply and fill the earth."

The point of Christianity isn't to look for loopholes and try to trick God. I find it interesting that some of you view it that way.

[John V]

Ok, so if the rate of survival is 100%, then why is it ok for god to drop a fetus into unsafe womb where it will die and likely kill the mother but it's not ok for the mother to take it out. 100% survival remember

God is the creator of all and can do as he pleases. We are his creation and do not have the same rights. There's a reason that we have words like procreate and reproduce.

[robvalue]

Let me rearrange this question:

For those of you who think dead babies go to heaven, is it in the baby's best interest to kill it before it has the chance to possibly go somewhere other than heaven? Forget for the moment whether or not anyone should actually kill the baby. Just answer from the baby's point of view. If you were the baby, what would you choose? Instant heaven, or this life and only a possibility of heaven?

For those of you who think the dead baby doesn't go to heaven, or has a lesser experience as a result of dying young, I'd be interested to hear what you believe instead.

No one wants to answer this huh?

I don't blame you.

[John V]

Let me rearrange this question:

For those of you who think dead babies go to heaven, is it in the baby's best interest to kill it before it has the chance to possibly go somewhere other than heaven?

Not necessarily. There are heavenly rewards based on actions in this life. If killed as a baby, it could have a lesser life in heaven than if it lived longer.

Forget for the moment whether or not anyone should actually kill the baby. Just answer from the baby's point of view. If you were the baby, what would you choose? Instant heaven, or this life and only a possibility of heaven?

Once you add the element of choice, the distinction between baby and adult is gone. The baby would have to have faith that its death would result in instant heaven in order to choose death. One could similarly ask an adult: Would you like an eternity in heaven at the cost of some modifications to your current life, or live out your life as you please and then spend an eternity in hell? The first choice is obviously better, but only if the person believes that there is indeed a heaven.

[John V]

Good point.

I'd really like to hear anyone honestly say that they would choose to risk their ticket into heaven if they were a baby with this choice, for the sake of this far inferior, finite life. I find it hard to believe anyone in their right mind would make such a statement. But we'll see! Forget about killing, the door is right in front of you. What does baby do? If I was a baby who understood it all, and those two choices were available, I'd go through the heaven door.

Again, the baby must believe that the choices are true, and that's no different from your own position as an adult.

[robvalue]

I don't understand that response.

I'm pretending it's all true, and I'm asking if it's in the best interests of the baby to kill it. If you were the baby and you had two doors, one to heaven and one to earth with only the possibility of heaven, which would you choose?

Are you saying you'd have enough reasonable doubt that it's all true to stop you killing the baby? No one has admitted that yet, but I highly suspect it's almost universally the case. First person to admit it gets a heathen high-five.

PS: you think a baby gets a lesser life in heaven because it gets killed? Wow that is a shitty system God set up. How is that fair on the baby? What a ginormous cock God is to punish someone for being killed as an infant.

[Kingpin]

Let me rearrange this question:

For those of you who think dead babies go to heaven, is it in the baby's best interest to kill it before it has the chance to possibly go somewhere other than heaven? Forget for the moment whether or not anyone should actually kill the baby. Just answer from the baby's point of view. If you were the baby, what would you choose? Instant heaven, or this life and only a possibility of heaven?

For those of you who think the dead baby doesn't go to heaven, or has a lesser experience as a result of dying young, I'd be interested to hear what you believe instead.

No one wants to answer this huh?

I don't blame you.

Rob, I will answer.  The Bible does not explicitly state this.  There are a few passages where one could discern this as highly probable.  A baby is incapable of having the knowledge to understand the choices, so I won't play that hypothetical game, but answer from the parent's perspective.  Since the ONLY way I know as being described in the Bible for one to be saved and enter the Kingdom of Heaven is to have the knowledge and belief in the work of Jesus Christ, I would say it is not in the baby's best interest to be killed.  It may well be the case if that baby dies (by natural or aborted means) that it goes to heaven, but I don't know that.  Again, I am not God and I do not have all the answers.  As I said before, people don't have children so God can have another soul to win.  People have children for themselves.  It is in the parent's interest to have the child, raise the child and love the child.  They are not thinking about the child's ultimate destiny.  Just my perspective.

[robvalue]

OK, thanks I'll take that as reasonable doubt then, and you can have a high five.

You're right, the bible isn't clear. About anything. People just generally make it up.

[John V]

I don't understand that response.

Not surprising, as you don't pose a clear scenario. you speak of people killing the baby, then the baby somehow making a choice. If you think it through and propose a clear scenario, you might pose better questions, and might better understand the answers you receive.

I'm pretending it's all true,

You're pretending what's all true?

and I'm asking if it's in the best interests of the baby to kill it.

And you got an answer: "Not necessarily. There are heavenly rewards based on actions in this life. If killed as a baby, it could have a lesser life in heaven than if it lived longer."

If you were the baby and you had two doors, one to heaven and one to earth with only the possibility of heaven, which would you choose?

Are you saying you'd have enough reasonable doubt that it's all true to stop you killing the baby? No one has admitted that yet, but I highly suspect it's almost universally the case. First person to admit it gets a heathen high-five.

Sure. Give me the high five. If we had faith as big as a mustard seed we could move mountains, but I don't see any mountains moving. There's a reason Christianity is called a faith.

PS: you think a baby gets a lesser life in heaven because it gets killed?

I don't know for sure, but it's possible considering that there are rewards given for actions in this life.

Wow that is a shitty system God set up. How is that fair on the baby? What a ginormous cock God is to punish someone for being killed as an infant.

How is it unfair?

By analogy, if someone gave you a Cadillac, and he gave someone else a Ferrari, is he a ginormous cock for giving you the Cadillac? Did he punish you by giving you a Cadillac? This is typical atheist reasoning which I just don't understand.

[robvalue]

OK so, reasonable doubt. I'll take that answer, thank you.

I don't much understand the rest of what you're saying, but thanks for answering

Well, if a father bought a better car for one son than another for no particular reason, I'd say he was being a cock, yeah.