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May 13, 2010 at 6:00 pm (This post was last modified: May 13, 2010 at 6:01 pm by fr0d0.)
Thing is Scented Nectar, I've been an atheist for far more years than I've been a Christian. All through that time I've loved arguing with people about religion. Something I wouldn't do, is try to argue a very weak point. There are plenty of juicy arguments to had, but your's If I may say so, is an argument from ignorance.
It's very basic theology. Yeah sure, to the uninitiated, an eye for an eye and turn the other cheek look like a gift on a plate. Apply a bit of logic tho' and you find yourself looking very silly indeed.
I appreciate you may be new to the idea. Just givin' you a heads up from someone who's bin there k?
Exactly as fr0do said. Maybe I've gotten a bit too heated and said some things I don't intend in this debate, but the point I'm trying to get across is that your argument is theologically weak. Since the Bible falls under theology, you have to approach it from a theological stand-point, or it doesn't work out at all.
Also, perhaps the section of thsi topic where discussion branched off from the original should be split into a seperate topic; since I was part of what caused that, I feel I should take responsibility for it and suggest the split. Can any admins do this, please?
Tons to catch up on, and tons of long posts to make...
Tack first, then I don't know, might be it for now, since after tonight I won't have much internet time until Sunday (moving this weekend).
(May 13, 2010 at 9:23 am)tackattack Wrote: I don't think God need thanks praise or worship.
The entire bible is one big think nice about god fest. The only times they are not ordering positive god thought, is when they are making supernatural claims and setting immoral, cruel laws.
Quote:I think that praise and thankfullness is a natural human response from one receiving (us). It's not a requirement from the one giving, although in human terms it is usually expeted, I don't feel God epects it.
Is there anything in the bible you DO agree with? The bible is one big command to love god, and to obey him also, due to him being so fucking worthy and good and perfect which you know because you are thinking that about him as ordered.
Quote:The Abrahamic God is depicted in the OT as a dictator.
Then Jesus is too, since he backs up and supports his own previous commands he made under his other name, God.
Quote:I'm aware that the NT holds up the abrahamic laws. It also teaches us to temper them with intuition and reason. It teaches us also to not be so closed-minded (and hearted) as to assume we are the autority on what box God fitsin, because he doesn't.
Really? Does the bible actually say anywhere not to slaughter other tribes and stone gays to death due to it being nonintuitive, unreasonable, closed minded/hearted, etc? No it doesn't. It just says to kill. So far. you have shown NOTHING in the bible that's good. Every good thing you present is from your own very unchristian view of the world, except of course that you really think you are getting this from the christian god. Every bad thing in the bible you are shown, you say doesn't really mean what it says. You are not a real christian, my friend.
Quote:I also ascent that people have suffered in the past for their beliefs.
Believers suffer from the unecessary humility, fear and unnecessary rules they take on with their religions. Nonbelievers suffer at the hands of the believers who try to force their personal voluntary misery onto everyone else by making it law.
Quote:No I was talking about hellfire and brimstone churches you've experienced. To claim that all of Christianity uses the threat of hell to sway believers is fallicious and not reperesentative of the current movement, IMO.
I'm not talking about some new revision movement you are part of. I'm talking about the more established and standard forms of xtianity. They do indeed believe in real hell, because they are going by what the bible says. Even though you say that you and your church don't, the others do. They really believe that after you die here on earth, you are kept alive by God to live an eternity of either reward or punishment. God isn't even merciful enough to let the hellbound simply die like a disobedient puppy he's kicked to death, no he keeps them alive to be in a state of agony forever.
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Quote:Yikes, maybe you should read the bible before you agree so quickly. Otherwise I will be scared to be around you. Your god would have me killed many times over by now, as well as being sentenced multiply to eternal torture, for many nonharmful 'crimes'.
I've read it several times actually, along with several versions, and various other belief's holy books. I just see it differently than you.
Wow, I guess the fact that you 'see it differently' than me, completely makes up for the fact that you will approve and do nothing when I am killed, and you might even murder me yourself since you agree with biblegod's morals. Are you SURE you agree with biblegod's morals? Let's say I was about to get stoned to death for working on your sabbath day, or running away from my slaveowner's cages (your god said I could be sold as a child and never be freed eventually like the male slaves), or whatever offends your god. What will you do? Will you not think on some level buried somewhere deep that these god-ordered punishments are wrong for my behaviour?
Quote:
Quote:You are ordered to love him.
If you could show me that I'd be appreciative. If not .. see above
The whole fucking bible is an example.
Quote:It's not the perfection of the machine that proves the creator, it's the imperfectons that reveal the necessity for God.
Why did he create things that were imperfect? If he is everything and everywhere, then you are saying he is imperfect. But that's good, since you would be silly to think he created except that massive ton of imperfection that is pretty much everywhere that coexists with the seemingly perfect.
Quote:And if your job was the only job in town, they'd be willfully choosing not to work at all. Hell would be not having a job i your scenario. I disagre with the analogy because of the qualifications portion.
Just like a job, you have to be qualified for god's heaven's by having a lovethatgod mentality. You don't qualify if you don't play the god game. In the case of a job though, the boss who turns you down won't be keeping you alive forever and ever for the express purpose of making you suffer the whole time.
Quote:That was the whole purpose behind Jesus' visit and reinterpretation of those rules.
Wow, God is a complete fuck up. He screws up the plan/rules for his creatures, then tries to fix it, in disguise, and apparently unable to be fixed by thinking it into being like he did the world, and it's still not fixed. What a loser, can't do anything right. Also, when he was aka jesus persona, he fucked up again. He forgot to reinterpret those rules you think he did. He didn't really do it. He just said keep following the old shitty ones. You didn`t notice that?
Quote:I will just respectfully disagree with you that man's rules are more just than God's. A topic for another time I guess.
No, please get into this. Give me a godrule example that is better than the modern secular treatment of the same 'crime'. Really, just one. And it has to be a real one, not something different you think it means, but what it actually says. Even if you ignore everything else I'm writing here, this is the one that is most important to me, being that my very life is at stake (as in, to be burned on one as a heretic, before or after the multiple death-stonings I will receive under godlaw). That's the only reason I care about you religious nuts' beliefs. They affect me when you follow your immoral godrules. If you just hurt yourselves, I'd feel sorry for you, but wouldn't find any need to fight back at you guys in self defence.
Quote:Maybe 1 in 70 Christians I've spoken with would say that the Bible was written by God.
Bullshit, they figure it was at least inspired enough by godboy himself to make it all magical, or holy or divine as they call it.
Quote:Hell is sent toa place when yoou've commited the ultimate wrong, denying the truth of God and his will. You may view that as nothing, but let me ask you this. If you knew for certain that God existed, would you still live you're life your way?
I'd change quicker than if a mere human gun were pointed at me, because the punishment is eternal torture. Shit, even terrorists break after a few hours. So, out of fear, but never love or respect, you bet I'd change, and my life would be miserable, but maybe better than torture. I would still go to hell for not loving him, but disbelief wouldn't be one of my many thoughtcrimes because in your fictional scenario, god proves his existence to me. That does not happen in reality, so your god is again a complete fuckup or sadistic in setting people up to fail. What type of insane freak of fucking evil would torture someone forever and ever just because no truthful evidence was ever presented to them? Holy fucking shit fuck, you worship this fucking devil????? Stop calling it a god, since gods are supposed to be the good deities. If you really think that God is a real life deity, then just fucking admit he must be an evil one, so you better start calling him Satan or whatever. Wow, you are an apologist for a serial killing torturer. What the fuck is wrong with you?????
And, in case you found the above rude and offensive, is it any ruder or more offensive than your god actually doing this shit to people?
Quote:I don't try and get away with anything. You sure do have a lot of presuppositions and biases towards me. Maybe you should drop those in our next talk so we can just talk. It comes off as quite spiteful in some of your posts. Anyways absense of God. Hell, according to the bible, will be created for Satan and his minions. It's like God built a house for his nephew. He can visit, but he'd probably rather stay home.
You are trying to get away with changing every goddamn thing in the bible. The only thing you can't change is your god's appalling immorality, so that one you just say is actually good without ever being able to explain what's so good about them. As far as the nephew's house, why is god locking them in, keeping them alive after death, and forcing them to feel agonizing pain forever? Huh? Why? Stop avoiding this. You follow an immoral asshole.
Quote:You may consider me whatever makes you happiest.
Sorry, but I don't believe things based on what would make me happy or not. I would rather know what you really are, although I think I know. A make it all up but call yourself a xtian type of believer.
Quote:I'll tell you that I myself consider myself a Non-denominational Christian with the Church of God Anderson, Indiana movement.
Hmm, non denomininational member of a denomination called church of god anderson. Ok. Are you called a movement because of the way you are trying to change what the bible says?
May 14, 2010 at 12:12 am (This post was last modified: May 14, 2010 at 12:31 am by Scented Nectar.)
(May 13, 2010 at 3:31 pm)Watson Wrote: How many times do I have to say this; I have experienced God, I have experienced His affects on this world, and I understand His nature.
Well, please stop saying it. Just prove it instead. State the effect and how you determined it was a god that caused it.
Quote:
Quote:Lots of deaths and misery have resulted from people doing just that with your biblebook.
And lots of good, too. Your point?
Not enough good to make up for the harm. Telling the congregation to be charitable on occasion and to vaguely do unto others, is not good enough to cancel out the wholesale slaughter and repression of nonbelievers, the suppression and persecution of anyone who discovers evidence showing their fairy tales to be wrong (current eposide is happening live in Texas and will affect all schoolbooks in the US), the theocracies that prevent any freedom from developing in a culture, the slavery, even the mental torture on the followers themselves. Is it all worth it because you felt warm and fuzzy once buying a homeless guy a meal (and teaching him about your lord of course)? That'll make up for it all, right?
Quote:
Quote:And I am hoping that those lessons you learned outweigh the horrible crimes committed in the name of that same book which has helped you so much, but even if they don't, I am curious as to what they are, preferable in the order of their importance to you.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
But that's secular law, not biblical. The bible repeats it once, but hundreds of philosophies have said the same long before and after the bible, no matter whether they were supernatural-belief based philosophies or realistic ones.
Quote:Love yourself.
Love others.
Love your life.
Love God(which essentially includes all of the above)
So these feelgood emotions are worth putting other people through horrible life long suffering? Suffering and crusades that have gone on since the fucking book was written? You don't even need a god to have feelgood emotions. You do need freedom from believers who want to make you suffer their immoral laws though.
Quote:
Quote:But you are if all the lessons are individual and not clearly the same for everyone.
No, I am saying that everyone experiences them differently, but that they are still the same lessons..
I hear you on that! The witch being burned alive and the little girl made to 'marry' (it's actually called rape, child rape to be precise) the man who just killed her family, sure do have a different experience of those lessons than the men doing that stuff to them. You betcha! Same lesson though, you are right about that, kill the witch and rape/forcemarry the girl who has not known men yet.
Quote:So have the writings of communists, so have the writings of republicans, so have the writings of democrats, so have the writings of socialists, so have the writings of just about every fucking person ever who's been widely known...your point?
Um, the point is that just because other people are doing horrible things, does not mean that when you do them, you are somehow not doing horrible things. Arggh!!!!
Quote:I can make predictions given certain scenarios, such as how people will be impacted by denying or accepting God, what they will do if they act a certain way, in relation to God, but I am not just going to pull stories out of my ass; I don't have the time for that right now. I suggest you re-read the Bible, because- hey, that's what the Bible is for!
I don't care about those predictions about how people respond to the idea of whether god is real or not. What I want to see is an actual real effect that we can see is caused by a god. I'm not talking about your emotional change that occurs when you think you have made an important (to you) choice. I want to see a real effect, one that is visible, or measurable somehow. How come your god is not powerful enough to show himself?
Quote:
Quote:The bible does NOT say the god parts and effect descriptions are true, but the rest is not.
It is fucking implied, that's the whole point of the Bible; to understand it, not just know it. You can't understand what you haven't experienced. It's like saying you're an expert on marijuana without ever having been high.
It is not implied. Your heaven is going to be a cherry tree orchard. It will be nice, the blossoms are fragrant and the cherries are tasty.
Quote:I have never, ever seen a disclaimed such as that on any scientific book ever. I could believe that it might be on some, but it is not necessary for people to understand that the example they are reading is fictional; it's common sense.
You've got to stop reading those creation 'science' books. Real science writing does indeed get very detailed, coldly clinical, and explains things so thoroughly as to be (almost) idiotproof. I'm not a scientist, but I love reading their stuff. I sometimes read clinical studies that are so wonderfully detailed, that they do a great job of expressing exactly what they intend, using the real words for things instead of metaphors and vague implied stuff.
Quote:
Quote:is all loving
Bolded what is so ironic, it blows my mind, for you.
Why do you say your god is all loving when there is no example of him ever being loving at all? And note I said "being loving", not "telling people that he's loving."
Quote:
Quote:I'm not a scientist, but a science book would more likely have something like: Here at the Research Lab where the author of this report works, we observed that 100% of the apples in our samples (100,000 subject apple trees with an average of 150 apples each) fell at the moment they were no longer supported by the tree branch. This was observed by a team of 10 researchers, recorded on video as well as stop-motion still photography, and the floor onto which the apples fell had a scale which recorded the weight difference when they landed. Air friction slowdown was seen and recorded, in relation to the apples' individual sizes and shapes aligning completely without deviation to the mathematics of such friction, blah blah.
No they wouldn't. Why? Because that sounds ridiculously fucking confusing and assumes that the reader does not trust the book in the first place, needing a shitload of back-up people to say "Oh, yeah, it happened". Readers don't need that if they're being presented something which is supposedly true.
Waah, the poor layman might get confused by too many facts. Waah, those scientists are always not trusting stuff, they never suppose things are true. As for your complaint about using verifiable results only, yes, scientific evidence is always able to be backed up by other people's identical observations. That's a big part of showing a thing to be true. What is your complaint against it? And of course no one is going to trust that a study is true before reading it, no scientist is going to pre-suppose that anything is true. That is FAITH you are describing. A scientist (or a fan of) will read the stuff and decide whether the results are correct based on the explanation of the the evidence, including the reasons why that evidence leads to a particular conclusion.
Quote:
Quote:Can you think of ANY context where killing disobedient children should be the rule? WTF?????
I am not saying that it should be the rule. I am saying that at the time, it was. You'll have to pin the blame on the men who wrote the Bible for thinking as such, not on God for decreeing as such; God would not do so.
People weren't killing their children enough for god's liking, since why else would god have himself made that law and commanded it be done. No getting away with pinning every bad thing on mere mortal weak men, but saying that some god is responsible for all the good stuff, uh uh.
Quote:It is all about the intent of the author. The Bible's authors intended to write down their observations about God and His nature/ how He works. For them to do that, they had to have observed God in real life, just as I have.
Who cares what their intent was? Was the writing factual? No. They did not need to observe god in order to write up stuff about his existence and personality. All they had to do was decide on what they felt like believing. That's called faith. Belief in something without evidence.
Quote:
Quote:Then, you are claiming that some guy named Jesus Christ was really God.
I am claiming that every one is God; at least, a part of them is. Therefore, Jesus Christ, who was as much a part of God as you or I and was the prodigal son of God, was more in-tune with God than you or I.
Then, why aren't you jewish or muslim? The xtians believe that jesus is god is the messiah is the saviour blah blah... That's the whole deciding difference between xtianity and the other similar ones who think Jesus was a human.
Quote:
Quote:The prediction of a coming messiah happened long before the xtian branching off 2000 years ago. The church found it politically and financially profitable to claim that it was really happening and that they are the right religion to follow. The details on whether a faked death/resurrection occurred, or whether it was completely just written fictually about a hundred years later are sketchy, but either way, it was very beneficial to the church's agenda of being the next theocracy. It worked too!
This is also the exact same reason why some messages in the Bible are not accurate to God's lessons and message; certain parts of the Bible were written merely for political domiation and control.
So, why the fuck are you following this book that you yourself keep saying again and again is inaccurate?
Quote:
Quote:Ok, so.... where is that evidence?
As I have stated many times, it is subjective evidence; empirical, scientific evidence is not the only kind of evidence possible.
Stop using 'subjective' and 'evidence' in the same sentence, until you learn their meanings. Evidence should only be used for actual proof of things. Your emotions and thoughts are not proof of any deity's existence. They are just proof that you are having emotions and thoughts about the concept of a god.
Quote:
Quote:Why would you need faith in observing anything? Doesn't that skew the results in favour of your predetermined faithbelief?
No, it does not. Trust is an off-shoot of faith; I trust the world around me is how it appears, therefore I have faith it is how it appears. I am then ready to make unbiased observations about the world around me, as it appears.
I am going to smack you on the head with a dictionary until you read it.
Quote:love is simply another word for the creator of the universe.
Dictionary smack smack smack smack. I'm going to stop now, since if I continued, it would go on for eternity, meaning my punishment of you would be as bad as the one your god threatens people with.
Quote:Also, God is not invisible. He is all around us, in forms we must look for and recognize as such.
Visibility means you DON'T have to look for it (you can see it right there!) and you don't have to make a decision to recognise it as a such and such, since you see what it is right away (not 'I'm going to believe it is a hockey puck, er, a god'). So, your god is indeed invisible.
Quote:I haven't read the Bible, actually. I don't care to know the details to the stories, because those aren't the parts which are important to the message; the funny thing is, they are the only parts that you focus on.
Ok, stop right here, because I am going to fucking die!!!!! You have not even read the thing??????? And you somehow know that the parts you haven't even read aren't important to the message. Holy fucking biblebook, Batman! Wow, you haven't read it??? And here you are arguing that you found some secret meaning that makes all the bad shit in the book good?
Quote:It's called understanding. When you read a book, you don't simply read the book to know what happens within it; you read it to understand what happens within it. Knowledge and understanding are not synonymous nor co-dependent.
Except that you haven't even read the thing!!!!!!
Quote:He cited the OT for His purposes, so that He could help those He was preaching to understand them better.
Except that you haven't even read the fucking thing!!!!
Quote:What do you mean by, you 'like' some of their sentiments? Go into more detail, please, break it down and super-simplify what you are saying.
I guess I didn't make it clear that unlike your interpretation of the bible, what I said was what I meant, that I like the sentiment of them not wanting to cause suffering to animals, but that does not mean I believe in their goddesses and other religious beliefs.
Quote:
Quote:Sounds good, I agree. Let's dump the bible and move on. It's 2010 people.
Want to write a new Bible? Okay, let's go for it! ...Oh, wait. You're an atheist, so...it would be kind of counter-productive to involve you.
No, I would be very supportive, provided your new one becomes very moral, replacing the whole book. I will still not believe in the supernatural elements, like gods and miracles, but I would rather see the godbelievers in the world follow a nice behaving religion than the usual cruel powerhungry ones. So go for it.
Quote:
Quote:Oh you poor sufferer. The bible says nothing about meaning spiritual 'death' whatever the fuck that is, I mean what has 'died' exactly?
Your...spirit...that is what is implied in the term 'spiritual death.' Fuck, you must really hate reading, don't you? To understand that the Bible means spiritual death, you have to read it as a whole, not as individual parts.
The definitions of spirit are all supernatural or emotional. No ability to die is mentioned, although obviously when you physically die, your beliefs in magic and spirited thoughts will die too. And how would you know anything that requires reading the bible as a whole? You've not even done that once, for fuck's sake!!!!
Quote:Implication. Intent. Rinse. Repeat.
I don't know how many times I have to tell you this.
Then stop telling me. I don't care how you see some different intent, no more than I care about the intent a paranoid person thinks is in nearby radio waves. I want proof that something is implied if you are claiming it is implied. It's fucking obvious that you are saying "it was implied". Show where. Quote something. Oh yeah, you haven't even fucking read the bible once yet, much less studied it or analyzed it.
Wow, and good night. Too many posts, or actually a nice amount for when I come back here on Sat night or Sunday after I move and reconnect the computer and internet. This place is fun.
Also, if I go a little too overboard in trying to shake some sense into the forum's pet xtians, someone let me know.
They are faking being gullibles who can't understand things, right? No one can possibly not-get-it so much as these guys, can they?
Some kind of face/palm picture should go here, but I have none.
Lol! I feel like I should be saying the same to you, Scented Nectar. And I'd like to apologize if anything I say is a little too heated or overly cynical towars you, as well. This sure is a fun place, isn't it?
I'll have my response whenever i get the time...for now, geez, I don't have the time!
I'll try to be concise and brief and just answer the questions
(May 13, 2010 at 9:27 pm)Scented Nectar Wrote:
Is there anything in the bible you DO agree with? The bible is one big command to love god, and to obey him also, due to him being so fucking worthy and good and perfect which you know because you are thinking that about him as ordered.
The Bible is not one big command to love God, IMO. As a whole, I would say it is man talking to man about God loves us and how we should show that same love to our fellow man to be more like him.
Quote:The Abrahamic God is depicted in the OT as a dictator.
Then Jesus is too, since he backs up and supports his own previous commands he made under his other name, God.
Jesus did support and quote the old laws and showed us that we were too rigid in our interpretation and had set ourselves upon a font of worldy wants and desires instead of focusing on God's will.
Quote:I'm aware that the NT holds up the abrahamic laws. It also teaches us to temper them with intuition and reason. It teaches us also to not be so closed-minded (and hearted) as to assume we are the autority on what box God fitsin, because he doesn't.
Really? Does the bible actually say anywhere not to slaughter other tribes and stone gays to death due to it being nonintuitive, unreasonable, closed minded/hearted, etc? No it doesn't. It just says to kill. So far. you have shown NOTHING in the bible that's good. Every good thing you present is from your own very unchristian view of the world, except of course that you really think you are getting this from the christian god. Every bad thing in the bible you are shown, you say doesn't really mean what it says. You are not a real christian, my friend.
I could list multitudes of good in the Bible, it is you who are focusing on the negative and I am merely coutering those. My view is Christian. They are supported fully by the doctrine of my churches foundation and I'm sure ar supported by most, if not all of the Christians who are members of this forum. If need be I will invite other Christians to poll. To answer your question yes it does say to not slaughter other tribes and stone gays. It says thou shalt not murder without cause. Clearly being gay, or another member of a different tribe is not a just cause for murder.
Quote:No I was talking about hellfire and brimstone churches you've experienced. To claim that all of Christianity uses the threat of hell to sway believers is fallicious and not reperesentative of the current movement, IMO.
I'm not talking about some new revision movement you are part of. I'm talking about the more established and standard forms of xtianity. They do indeed believe in real hell, because they are going by what the bible says. Even though you say that you and your church don't, the others do. They really believe that after you die here on earth, you are kept alive by God to live an eternity of either reward or punishment. God isn't even merciful enough to let the hellbound simply die like a disobedient puppy he's kicked to death, no he keeps them alive to be in a state of agony forever.
Well we're not Presbyterians, mormons, catholics, methodists or baptist, but we've been around since 1880. Official lutheran stance = "Hell is conceived as the place of the dead and the lost who are separated from the presence of God." For the Orthodox, Heaven is not a place in the sky, it is being with God. Here's a look at catholicism "This state of definitive self- exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "Hell." C.S Lewis and J.P. Moreland see the protestant hell as a seperation from God. Some protestants even believe in a "limited" version of hell where you sonly suffer as long as proportionate to your crimes. 7th day adventists don't believe in hell. Jehovah's Witnesses reject the traditional concept of "hellfire". wiki runs out there but I'm sure I could go on. Perhaps you might admit that your view that most Christians (not just my little 7,446 congregation movement) could possibly be askew.
Quote:
Quote:Yikes, maybe you should read the bible before you agree so quickly. Otherwise I will be scared to be around you. Your god would have me killed many times over by now, as well as being sentenced multiply to eternal torture, for many nonharmful 'crimes'.
I've read it several times actually, along with several versions, and various other belief's holy books. I just see it differently than you.
Wow, I guess the fact that you 'see it differently' than me, completely makes up for the fact that you will approve and do nothing when I am killed, and you might even murder me yourself since you agree with biblegod's morals. Are you SURE you agree with biblegod's morals? Let's say I was about to get stoned to death for working on your sabbath day, or running away from my slaveowner's cages (your god said I could be sold as a child and never be freed eventually like the male slaves), or whatever offends your god. What will you do? Will you not think on some level buried somewhere deep that these god-ordered punishments are wrong for my behaviour?
Of course I wouldn't stand by, or participate. Your death would not justified by those crimes.I think I covered why above.
Quote:
Quote:You are ordered to love him.
If you could show me that I'd be appreciative. If not .. see above
The whole fucking bible is an example.
May I ask if you've read the bible?
Quote:It's not the perfection of the machine that proves the creator, it's the imperfectons that reveal the necessity for God.
Why did he create things that were imperfect? If he is everything and everywhere, then you are saying he is imperfect. But that's good, since you would be silly to think he created except that massive ton of imperfection that is pretty much everywhere that coexists with the seemingly perfect.
He can be anywhere and he is the good in everything. As to why he would create imperfect things, if I were to guess at his reasonings perhaps we needed room to grow into a better understanding of life love, right and wrong.
Quote:I will just respectfully disagree with you that man's rules are more just than God's. A topic for another time I guess.
No, please get into this. Give me a godrule example that is better than the modern secular treatment of the same 'crime'. Really, just one. And it has to be a real one, not something different you think it means, but what it actually says. Even if you ignore everything else I'm writing here, this is the one that is most important to me, being that my very life is at stake (as in, to be burned on one as a heretic, before or after the multiple death-stonings I will receive under godlaw). That's the only reason I care about you religious nuts' beliefs. They affect me when you follow your immoral godrules. If you just hurt yourselves, I'd feel sorry for you, but wouldn't find any need to fight back at you guys in self defence.
OK. Well firstly the bible teaches to respect all authorities including the laws of man, ergo I can't see it as any worse. Better and crime being very subjective words, I'll make a reasonable stab at it. Let's say a man watched his family brutally murdered, then freed himself and killed the perps. Would he legally have responsibility for taking a life, yes. Does he deserve some punishment, well my heart says he should get something, alothough I think he did the "right/just" thing and hope he gets off easy (which all depends on how the kidnappers family has money for a good lawyer). As to God's law, if it was a just murder then it was acceptable.. whereas his captors are indeed charged with an abomination from God and are out of his sight. Do I think that society would benefit (therefore the law better) from criminals having a little more healthy fear of what society will do to them and that justice will be had in or outside the courts? Yes. So in my opinion it would be a better law. If you have specific laws which you feel threatened by death-stonings for, I'll be happy to address those.
Quote:Maybe 1 in 70 Christians I've spoken with would say that the Bible was written by God.
Bullshit, they figure it was at least inspired enough by godboy himself to make it all magical, or holy or divine as they call it.
Your point was in saying that Christians believe the Bible was written by God, which is different than inspired , magical, divine or holy.
Quote:Hell is sent toa place when yoou've commited the ultimate wrong, denying the truth of God and his will. You may view that as nothing, but let me ask you this. If you knew for certain that God existed, would you still live you're life your way?
I'd change quicker than if a mere human gun were pointed at me, because the punishment is eternal torture. Shit, even terrorists break after a few hours. So, out of fear, but never love or respect, you bet I'd change, and my life would be miserable, but maybe better than torture. I would still go to hell for not loving him, but disbelief wouldn't be one of my many thoughtcrimes because in your fictional scenario, god proves his existence to me. That does not happen in reality, so your god is again a complete fuckup or sadistic in setting people up to fail. What type of insane freak of fucking evil would torture someone forever and ever just because no truthful evidence was ever presented to them? Holy fucking shit fuck, you worship this fucking devil????? Stop calling it a god, since gods are supposed to be the good deities. If you really think that God is a real life deity, then just fucking admit he must be an evil one, so you better start calling him Satan or whatever. Wow, you are an apologist for a serial killing torturer. What the fuck is wrong with you?????
And, in case you found the above rude and offensive, is it any ruder or more offensive than your god actually doing this shit to people?
I don't personally take offense, although I really feel personal attack have little to no place in a civil discussion. What exactly has God done to you, or anyone else now/recently living that you consider evil? Actually God does make allowances for people who don't know of God.
For the truth about God is known to them instinctively. God has put this knowledge in their hearts. From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. The result was that their minds became dark and confused. – Romans 1:18-21
and one better
Romans 2:14-15 (New Living Translation)
14 Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. 15 They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.
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Quote:I don't try and get away with anything. You sure do have a lot of presuppositions and biases towards me. Maybe you should drop those in our next talk so we can just talk. It comes off as quite spiteful in some of your posts. Anyways absense of God. Hell, according to the bible, will be created for Satan and his minions. It's like God built a house for his nephew. He can visit, but he'd probably rather stay home.
You are trying to get away with changing every goddamn thing in the bible. The only thing you can't change is your god's appalling immorality, so that one you just say is actually good without ever being able to explain what's so good about them. As far as the nephew's house, why is god locking them in, keeping them alive after death, and forcing them to feel agonizing pain forever? Huh? Why? Stop avoiding this. You follow an immoral asshole.
I'm not trying to change the bible at all. The only issues I have with some contemporary bibles are the misrepresentation of original context. Homosexuality is a great example. It's a 19th century word, what is it doing in a 2000 year old book? If there was an original Greek word for homosexual as we see it today, why didn't they use that instead? I'm not avoiding anything, and you've definately made your repetitive point that you believe God is immoral over and over. I can see why you might think that. You're not attempting to do anything other than cram your opinion down my throat and I don't think you're really listening. Should I give an example of where punishment is a good thing for an individual? You still have failed to prove that a majority of Christianity believe in an eternity of hellfire and brimstone and torture, if you would do that perhaps it would further the topic.
Quote:You may consider me whatever makes you happiest.
Sorry, but I don't believe things based on what would make me happy or not. I would rather know what you really are, although I think I know. A make it all up but call yourself a xtian type of believer.
You are certainly entitled to your opinions. There is still a lot of resentment, accusation and presumption in the tone of your post. I'd really liketo continue this discussion but not if you're going to continue the personal attacks. I'm not sure what experiences you've had with religion to this point that has given you this preconception. If you would elaborate on that maybe we could further this discussion in a more civil tone.
Quote:I'll tell you that I myself consider myself a Non-denominational Christian with the Church of God Anderson, Indiana movement.
Hmm, non denomininational member of a denomination called church of god anderson. Ok. Are you called a movement because of the way you are trying to change what the bible says?
Leave the cult of god belief, Tack.
I did leave it and it was rewarding in it's enlightenment, yet devoid of facets of existence I see as part of my reality. I simply reffered to us as a movement because we started off very much mving from place to place, with no actual church buildings, doctrine or formal membership. The movement also did a lot for awareness during the war, and while they supported it we have almost intrinsicaly been pacifists.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
(May 16, 2010 at 1:37 am)tackattack Wrote: well I'll ignor the second comment, if you would like to more clearly define cherry picking and site an exact example not related to the discussion I will attempt to see it from you perspective KichigaiNeko.
Why??
Nothing I submit will satisfy you as you cherry pick you way via semantics and your philosophy (aka delusions of grandeur) out of anything presented to you.
I would not ignore my second comment if I were you. People can be very disgusting whether they are xtians jews muslims or calathumpians. The reason xtians are singled out here is the OP was about an xtian priest and his views towards a homeless person, violating one of that jebus' own edicts...."love one another" I do not remember seeing the words writen.... "but that excludes homeless people."
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
(May 14, 2010 at 12:03 pm)tackattack Wrote: It says thou shalt not murder without cause. Clearly being gay, or another member of a different tribe is not a just cause for murder.
According to your bible, they ARE just causes for death sentences, one cause is that being gay is an abomination according to god, and the god-ordered punishment is death (an exile only, instead of death is allowed somewhere in the bible too, so maybe with a bit of mercy your god will just make gays homeless in a foreign country). Same with many many instances of slaughtering other tribes, except for the little girls who they were told to keep alive and rape. Nice god you follow.
Quote:but we've been around since 1880. Official lutheran stance = "Hell is conceived as the place of the dead and the lost who are separated from the presence of God." For the Orthodox, Heaven is not a place in the sky, it is being with God.
Even if you believe that the punishment is milder than the bible actually says, it is still something that is supposed to be unpleasant. Why does your god bring the hellbound back to life to make them go through that? Why doesn't he just let them die, like the puppy he's just kicked to death?
Quote:May I ask if you've read the bible?
Sure thing, ask away, but only after you have reassured me that you, an actual christian, have read the whole thing at least once completely. Oh yeah, you haven't read the thing.
Quote:If you have specific laws which you feel threatened by death-stonings for, I'll be happy to address those.
How about the many examples I already posted? You came back with a tale of self defence. That's not what I'm talking about. You know that. Stop avoiding it.
Quote:What exactly has God done to you, or anyone else now/recently living that you consider evil?
God has done nothing. He doesn't exist. It's you believers who are the problem, forcing your immoral theocracies on other people, including death sentences.
Quote:Homosexuality is a great example. It's a 19th century word, what is it doing in a 2000 year old book? If there was an original Greek word for homosexual as we see it today, why didn't they use that instead?
Some day, if you actually READ the bible, you will see that it doesn't use the word homosexual. It describes the sex itself, as a man laying with a man the way they do with a woman or something like that. Then your god says to kill the ones doing it. You should also research your holy book. It's been retranslated a bunch of times, and even when they got to the English, over hundreds of years, wording and content changed. Also, there are many document sources that the bible was compiled from, and no one has the originals. Did you know that? It is a complete mix of many authors of course as well. You knew that, didn't you?
Here's a little something from Dprjones on YouTube, that tells a bit about the bible in general. You might want some background on the book, in case you ever decide to actually read it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFDwK5ko7sI
And just to warn you, and prevent any confusions over the zillions of contradictions you will see in the bible, don't worry too much. This video is Quiz Show (Bible Contradictions), by NonStampCollector: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB3g6mXLEKk
Yes I have read the Bible, If you're going to tell me my opinion and tell me what I've read then I don't see any actual progress in this thread.
I've read 3 versions of the modern Bible all the way though. I've read the Tanakh, Torah, apochrapha, the Sutras, the vedas, several books on wiccan, pagan, satanic and mentalist topics. I've almost finished the Qur'an and lots of philosophical topics regarding religion. Now that I've answered (even though you answered for me) feel free to stop dodging the question. It was for my curiosity not for any personal credibility arguement.
Leviticus 18:22 (NLT) 22 “Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT) Leviticus 18:22 22`And with a male thou dost not lie as one lieth with a woman; abomination it [is].
As you can see it does actually say the word homosexual.. which is an improper use of modern language not in context with the closest approximation of the original, IMO. I posted thouroughly in another thread my problems with homosexuality being a sin in the Bible.
I am not forcing any theocracies on you, so lumping me with some percieved threat you feel is counterproductive. I actually wholly push for seperation of church and state when I share my political views in public.
To answer your questions:
Why does your god bring the hellbound back to life to make them go through that? You can believe that your consciousness continues after you die or you don't you're mixing the 2 concepts here.
Why doesn't he just let them die, like the puppy he's just kicked to death? God doesn't kick anything... if he had legs we'd have evidence Death is a part of the cycle of life God constructed for us to go through. He does let their bodies die. The consciousness though should be accountable for it's choices.
If you would be so kind as to re-list the laws which you feel you could be stoned for doing, so I don't have to wade through all the cynical and snarky commentary then I'd be happy to address them. The only one adressed in this post was homosexuality.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
Maybe I've gotten a bit too heated and said some things I don't intend in this debate, but the point I'm trying to get across is that your argument is 
