A discussion around family table.

[fr0d0]

Thing is Scented Nectar, I've been an atheist for far more years than I've been a Christian. All through that time I've loved arguing with people about religion. Something I wouldn't do, is try to argue a very weak point. There are plenty of juicy arguments to had, but your's If I may say so, is an argument from ignorance.

It's very basic theology. Yeah sure, to the uninitiated, an eye for an eye and turn the other cheek look like a gift on a plate. Apply a bit of logic tho' and you find yourself looking very silly indeed.

I appreciate you may be new to the idea. Just givin' you a heads up from someone who's bin there k?

[Watson]

Exactly as fr0do said. Maybe I've gotten a bit too heated and said some things I don't intend in this debate, but the point I'm trying to get across is that your argument is theologically weak. Since the Bible falls under theology, you have to approach it from a theological stand-point, or it doesn't work out at all.

Also, perhaps the section of thsi topic where discussion branched off from the original should be split into a seperate topic; since I was part of what caused that, I feel I should take responsibility for it and suggest the split. Can any admins do this, please?

[Scented Nectar]

Tons to catch up on, and tons of long posts to make...
Tack first, then I don't know, might be it for now, since after tonight I won't have much internet time until Sunday (moving this weekend).

I don't think God need thanks praise or worship.

The entire bible is one big think nice about god fest. The only times they are not ordering positive god thought, is when they are making supernatural claims and setting immoral, cruel laws.

I think that praise and thankfullness is a natural human response from one receiving (us). It's not a requirement from the one giving, although in human terms it is usually expeted, I don't feel God epects it.

Is there anything in the bible you DO agree with? The bible is one big command to love god, and to obey him also, due to him being so fucking worthy and good and perfect which you know because you are thinking that about him as ordered.

The Abrahamic God is depicted in the OT as a dictator.

Then Jesus is too, since he backs up and supports his own previous commands he made under his other name, God.

I'm aware that the NT holds up the abrahamic laws. It also teaches us to temper them with intuition and reason. It teaches us also to not be so closed-minded (and hearted) as to assume we are the autority on what box God fitsin, because he doesn't.

Really? Does the bible actually say anywhere not to slaughter other tribes and stone gays to death due to it being nonintuitive, unreasonable, closed minded/hearted, etc? No it doesn't. It just says to kill. So far. you have shown NOTHING in the bible that's good. Every good thing you present is from your own very unchristian view of the world, except of course that you really think you are getting this from the christian god. Every bad thing in the bible you are shown, you say doesn't really mean what it says. You are not a real christian, my friend.

I also ascent that people have suffered in the past for their beliefs.

Believers suffer from the unecessary humility, fear and unnecessary rules they take on with their religions. Nonbelievers suffer at the hands of the believers who try to force their personal voluntary misery onto everyone else by making it law.

No I was talking about hellfire and brimstone churches you've experienced. To claim that all of Christianity uses the threat of hell to sway believers is fallicious and not reperesentative of the current movement, IMO.

I'm not talking about some new revision movement you are part of. I'm talking about the more established and standard forms of xtianity. They do indeed believe in real hell, because they are going by what the bible says. Even though you say that you and your church don't, the others do. They really believe that after you die here on earth, you are kept alive by God to live an eternity of either reward or punishment. God isn't even merciful enough to let the hellbound simply die like a disobedient puppy he's kicked to death, no he keeps them alive to be in a state of agony forever.

Yikes, maybe you should read the bible before you agree so quickly. Otherwise I will be scared to be around you. Your god would have me killed many times over by now, as well as being sentenced multiply to eternal torture, for many nonharmful 'crimes'.

I've read it several times actually, along with several versions, and various other belief's holy books. I just see it differently than you.

Wow, I guess the fact that you 'see it differently' than me, completely makes up for the fact that you will approve and do nothing when I am killed, and you might even murder me yourself since you agree with biblegod's morals. Are you SURE you agree with biblegod's morals? Let's say I was about to get stoned to death for working on your sabbath day, or running away from my slaveowner's cages (your god said I could be sold as a child and never be freed eventually like the male slaves), or whatever offends your god. What will you do? Will you not think on some level buried somewhere deep that these god-ordered punishments are wrong for my behaviour?

You are ordered to love him.

If you could show me that I'd be appreciative. If not .. see above

The whole fucking bible is an example.

It's not the perfection of the machine that proves the creator, it's the imperfectons that reveal the necessity for God.

Why did he create things that were imperfect? If he is everything and everywhere, then you are saying he is imperfect. But that's good, since you would be silly to think he created except that massive ton of imperfection that is pretty much everywhere that coexists with the seemingly perfect.

And if your job was the only job in town, they'd be willfully choosing not to work at all. Hell would be not having a job i your scenario. I disagre with the analogy because of the qualifications portion.

Just like a job, you have to be qualified for god's heaven's by having a lovethatgod mentality. You don't qualify if you don't play the god game. In the case of a job though, the boss who turns you down won't be keeping you alive forever and ever for the express purpose of making you suffer the whole time.

That was the whole purpose behind Jesus' visit and reinterpretation of those rules.

Wow, God is a complete fuck up. He screws up the plan/rules for his creatures, then tries to fix it, in disguise, and apparently unable to be fixed by thinking it into being like he did the world, and it's still not fixed. What a loser, can't do anything right. Also, when he was aka jesus persona, he fucked up again. He forgot to reinterpret those rules you think he did. He didn't really do it. He just said keep following the old shitty ones. You didn`t notice that?

I will just respectfully disagree with you that man's rules are more just than God's. A topic for another time I guess.

No, please get into this. Give me a godrule example that is better than the modern secular treatment of the same 'crime'. Really, just one. And it has to be a real one, not something different you think it means, but what it actually says. Even if you ignore everything else I'm writing here, this is the one that is most important to me, being that my very life is at stake (as in, to be burned on one as a heretic, before or after the multiple death-stonings I will receive under godlaw). That's the only reason I care about you religious nuts' beliefs. They affect me when you follow your immoral godrules. If you just hurt yourselves, I'd feel sorry for you, but wouldn't find any need to fight back at you guys in self defence.

Maybe 1 in 70 Christians I've spoken with would say that the Bible was written by God.

Bullshit, they figure it was at least inspired enough by godboy himself to make it all magical, or holy or divine as they call it.

Hell is sent toa place when yoou've commited the ultimate wrong, denying the truth of God and his will. You may view that as nothing, but let me ask you this. If you knew for certain that God existed, would you still live you're life your way?

I'd change quicker than if a mere human gun were pointed at me, because the punishment is eternal torture. Shit, even terrorists break after a few hours. So, out of fear, but never love or respect, you bet I'd change, and my life would be miserable, but maybe better than torture. I would still go to hell for not loving him, but disbelief wouldn't be one of my many thoughtcrimes because in your fictional scenario, god proves his existence to me. That does not happen in reality, so your god is again a complete fuckup or sadistic in setting people up to fail. What type of insane freak of fucking evil would torture someone forever and ever just because no truthful evidence was ever presented to them? Holy fucking shit fuck, you worship this fucking devil????? Stop calling it a god, since gods are supposed to be the good deities. If you really think that God is a real life deity, then just fucking admit he must be an evil one, so you better start calling him Satan or whatever. Wow, you are an apologist for a serial killing torturer. What the fuck is wrong with you?????

And, in case you found the above rude and offensive, is it any ruder or more offensive than your god actually doing this shit to people?

I don't try and get away with anything. You sure do have a lot of presuppositions and biases towards me. Maybe you should drop those in our next talk so we can just talk. It comes off as quite spiteful in some of your posts. Anyways absense of God. Hell, according to the bible, will be created for Satan and his minions. It's like God built a house for his nephew. He can visit, but he'd probably rather stay home.

You are trying to get away with changing every goddamn thing in the bible. The only thing you can't change is your god's appalling immorality, so that one you just say is actually good without ever being able to explain what's so good about them. As far as the nephew's house, why is god locking them in, keeping them alive after death, and forcing them to feel agonizing pain forever? Huh? Why? Stop avoiding this. You follow an immoral asshole.

You may consider me whatever makes you happiest.

Sorry, but I don't believe things based on what would make me happy or not. I would rather know what you really are, although I think I know. A make it all up but call yourself a xtian type of believer.

I'll tell you that I myself consider myself a Non-denominational Christian with the Church of God Anderson, Indiana movement.

Hmm, non denomininational member of a denomination called church of god anderson. Ok. Are you called a movement because of the way you are trying to change what the bible says?

Leave the cult of god belief, Tack.

[Scented Nectar]

[Watson]

Lol! I feel like I should be saying the same to you, Scented Nectar. And I'd like to apologize if anything I say is a little too heated or overly cynical towars you, as well. This sure is a fun place, isn't it?

I'll have my response whenever i get the time...for now, geez, I don't have the time!

[tackattack]

[KichigaiNeko]

Just seems the same old cherry picking IMHO 'tackattack'

Rather disgusting creatures some of these xtians.....

[KichigaiNeko]

well I'll ignor the second comment, if you would like to more clearly define cherry picking and site an exact example not related to the discussion I will attempt to see it from you perspective KichigaiNeko.

Why??

Nothing I submit will satisfy you as you cherry pick you way via semantics and your philosophy (aka delusions of grandeur) out of anything presented to you.

I would not ignore my second comment if I were you. People can be very disgusting whether they are xtians jews muslims or calathumpians. The reason xtians are singled out here is the OP was about an xtian priest and his views towards a homeless person, violating one of that jebus' own edicts...."love one another" I do not remember seeing the words writen.... "but that excludes homeless people."

[Scented Nectar]

[tackattack]