A discussion around family table.

[Scented Nectar]

You choose not to take context into account, yet are complaining that you don't understand.

There's no context being presented to me, so how can I understand something if it's not there? The missing element is any example at all of where I have taken a horrible bible thing out of context. An example meaning that you show how the other bible parts cancel it out. I am willing to take context into account, but I don't think you can present anything other than your emotions about what a good god must have meant. Speaks well of you, so don't get me wrong here, you seem to be choosing the more moral paths in life despite your evil god's commands.

You can define faith any way you like, you seem to accept only the interpretations of words that coincide with your biases.

That's unfair. The normal dictionary definitions must be assumed by me, since you never used a disclaimer saying 'when I use the word faith here, I really mean such&such which is similar in thisorthat but different in as far as whatzit goes'. Note that I used nonsense words as fillers since I still don't know what your personal definition of the word is compared to which parts of the normal definitions.

You and the writer above claim how can you believe in something you can't interact with. We're saying you can't know if something exists unless you've interacted with it. If you feel every theist is a delusional, irrational unicorn believer than fine by me. If you want to believe the holy spirit is just an emotional state, fine by me. I really wish you wouldn't speak to things you have no context or belief in though.

I've fully interacted. Just like the guy in the video (Dusty Smith, has lots of great videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/CultOfDusty by the way), I am very willing to interact with any gods that want to communicate with me. I've done my part. I'm here, if ever any god wishes to chat. They don't even have to phone ahead. Same goes for other deities too though, and flower fairies, and thetans, and ghosts, and santa clauses, and really any other supernatural entities. It's usually nice to meet new people, especially unusual interesting ones, as I imagine these beings would be.

[tackattack]

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You choose not to take context into account, yet are complaining that you don't understand.

There's no context being presented to me, so how can I understand something if it's not there? The missing element is any example at all of where I have taken a horrible bible thing out of context. An example meaning that you show how the other bible parts cancel it out. I am willing to take context into account, but I don't think you can present anything other than your emotions about what a good god must have meant. Speaks well of you, so don't get me wrong here, you seem to be choosing the more moral paths in life despite your evil god's commands.

You can define faith any way you like, you seem to accept only the interpretations of words that coincide with your biases.

That's unfair. The normal dictionary definitions must be assumed by me, since you never used a disclaimer saying 'when I use the word faith here, I really mean such&such which is similar in thisorthat but different in as far as whatzit goes'. Note that I used nonsense words as fillers since I still don't know what your personal definition of the word is compared to which parts of the normal definitions.

You and the writer above claim how can you believe in something you can't interact with. We're saying you can't know if something exists unless you've interacted with it. If you feel every theist is a delusional, irrational unicorn believer than fine by me. If you want to believe the holy spirit is just an emotional state, fine by me. I really wish you wouldn't speak to things you have no context or belief in though.

I've fully interacted. Just like the guy in the video (Dusty Smith, has lots of great videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/CultOfDusty by the way), I am very willing to interact with any gods that want to communicate with me. I've done my part. I'm here, if ever any god wishes to chat. They don't even have to phone ahead. Same goes for other deities too though, and flower fairies, and thetans, and ghosts, and santa clauses, and really any other supernatural entities. It's usually nice to meet new people, especially unusual interesting ones, as I imagine these beings would be.

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1- Even the skeptics Annotated Bible(SAB) has a list of good things in the Bible. You're not even attempting to comment on them. I fully admitted to teh horrors in teh Bible and I don't think you're being intellectually honest. Context is not taking 1 liners from the parts you disagree with, by differnt authors, without thought for the pages up to and after the sentence for a perspective and trying to get me to cancel them out with oneliners from the other side. It's not a weight and balance scale, there's duality in the men who wrote it therefore it's in teh book by them as well. For instance: the OT references to homosexuality (not the word use the context from the Koine Greek) These translations generally interpret the Greek words "malakoi" and "arsenokoitai" as referring to homosexuals. Effiminate or soft would be the former and catamite would be the latter.We can be fairly certain that this is not the meaning that Paul wanted to convey. If he had, he would have used the Greek word "paiderasste." That was the standard term at the time for males who had sex with males. That coupled with the fact it's in a long list of things the pagan converts (with old pagan rituals) are doing wrong within the church.That's context, language changes and expands and meanings change over time. If I said you were nice it'd be a compliment, however originally from the greek it was meant to be an ignorant person.


2- As far as definine faith, I agree with Arcanus' explination of faith. What I'm trying to explain to you is not the definition of the words that is an issue. I can throw 20 random words at you and we can agree on their definition. But them in a sentence and we might disagree as to the meaning of it, due to context. It's about factoring in the subject, the author, the time, the society it was all written in. It's about how verbal stories were written as moralistic poems and narratives rich in imagery lacking in reality.

3-Good I'm glad you're open to the experience, it doesn't come across in your words to this point, but I'll accept that you are at face value.

[Scented Nectar]

1- Even the skeptics Annotated Bible(SAB) has a list of good things in the Bible. You're not even attempting to comment on them.

That's because you haven't presented them until now. Speaking of which, uh oh, you still haven't presented them, not even with a link to the list, much less a copy and pasting of it. By the way, before you go to the trouble, don't bother unless the good in the list makes the bad genocide/slavery/murder/torture etc, insignificant in comparison. Somehow, being fair in measurements doesn't seem to do it, you know?

3-Good I'm glad you're open to the experience, it doesn't come across in your words to this point, but I'll accept that you are at face value.

I'm always open to evidence of any claim, including a supernatural one, being a real (natural) phenomenon. But, just like any other type of new information presented to me, I'm going to need convincing with evidence, at least enough for a solid indication that the claim might be true. I'm as open to it as you are of my invisible flower fairies. If shown evidence, of course you'd believe it, but until then it's more than reasonable for you to conclude there are no flower fairies.

[tackattack]

1-Can't you see how biased you're being? "Don't even bother".. are you pretending the Bible didn't have any good at all this whole time? You've never seen the SAG to the Bible? Is a word count of how many times Love is in the Bible vs the word kill what you're wanting? That method is ineffectual for concept formation which is a key to reading comprehension.

3- Yes but I wouldn't ridicule you or attack your belief in those faries. If you have subjective experiences and have approached it rationally and logically then I'd assume it's real to you and you're not delusional. I'd probably even come visit to get a look for myself.

[Scented Nectar]

1-Can't you see how biased you're being?

No. I think I'm being quite open to bizarre concepts should any evidence ever appear, such as if a god wanted to meet me. I would be unbiased until I knew for sure what the god's expectations of humans were, and how able it was to enforce or punish based on those expectations. I might then become biased in some way depending on what I heard straight from the horse's mouth.

"Don't even bother".. are you pretending the Bible didn't have any good at all this whole time?

It has a tiny bit of good, the 'don't even bother' is so that you don't have all the quoting work, unless the good stuff is soooo good that it cancels out all the horrible stuff, making it seem insignificant, in which case I'd really like to see it.

You've never seen the SAG to the Bible? Is a word count of how many times Love is in the Bible vs the word kill what you're wanting? That method is ineffectual for concept formation which is a key to reading comprehension.

I think I was at the site once or twice years ago when someone linked to it. Words need the context of sentences, otherwise you don't even know whether it's demanding love or just saying love is nice, etc. Sort of like how sentences sometimes need other sentences for context. Speaking of which, all claims that the bible sentences are being seen by me out of context are still unproven. No one has shown me good contextual sentences that cancel out the bad ones.

3- Yes but I wouldn't ridicule you or attack your belief in those faries.

I hope you would at least a bit, since it is really silly for me to claim they are real and just expect you to accept that unquestioningly. You should let me know clearly that you don't have enough evidence to take such a crazy claim seriously.

If you have subjective experiences and have approached it rationally and logically then I'd assume it's real to you and you're not delusional. I'd probably even come visit to get a look for myself.

And I would fail in my effort to show you anything to do with flower fairies. I could show you the flowers, how full of fairy energy they seem, how obviously fairies are everywhere even if there is nothing to indicate that other than my wish for it to be so. If something that specific is real to me but to no one else, then there is still a good chance that I truly am delusional.

And a little pascal's wager to go with my coffee, if any fairies are listening, please don't punish me by making my flowers wilt. All I did was doubt your existence. And you said you'd never be a prick like some of your competitors that way. What's that? You were joking about all those worship requirements? You had me going, guys, I'm treating you to plant food today, good one!

[tackattack]

1- Then you're being intellectually dishonest, IMO. Although I will fully admit that this post was the least smarmy, clearest and seemingly open conversational post we've had yet. Cheers for more to come.

2-If you insist on your weights and measures/ canceling out here you go http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/good/long.html Let me know how those numbers turn out.

3- I can let you know clearly that your subjective experiences aren't something I share. I wouldn't add adjectives like crazy, stupid, ignorant, closed-minded, silly or foolish to the word claim. If I had questions I'd ask them respectfully and with an open mind. Your belief in fairies doesn't force me to accept anything. You believe it's true, that's great.. it has nothing to do with my view of reality until it presents itself or it's evidence to me. I can't disprove any of your subjective experisnces. If you live your life without infringing on anyone else's freedoms and you make a positive influsence on society; If you handle reality logically and rationally; it's far more likely that you have insight that I do not, rather than you're delusional.

[Godscreated]

Scented Nectar the reason you can say what you wish about God is the freewill He has given mankind. If God were who you claimed Him to be you would surely be toast by now. I know you do not claim God at all however you can not disprove Him and that said if He does exsist then your wrong because you are not toast yet. As far as hell is concerned it is a real place but far different than you think. It's a place where you will be allowed to carry on as you do on this forum, hating God with all your being and never able to love again. This is with out a doubt more awful than anyone can conceive. A burning hell is something one can imagine and probably the worst thing one could imagine as a punishment. Just responding to some of the things you have stated in this discussion and somethings to think about if you wish.

[Scented Nectar]

1- Then you're being intellectually dishonest, IMO. Although I will fully admit that this post was the least smarmy, clearest and seemingly open conversational post we've had yet. Cheers for more to come.

What's dishonest about what I wrote? I'm not lying at all. Don't get too happy about my lack of rudeness, as that state of being without rudeness is always overcome by me eventually. Hell is a state of being without rudeness, you know.

2-If you insist on your weights and measures/ canceling out here you go http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/good/long.html [broken link fixed - SN] Let me know how those numbers turn out.

That list does not cancel out any of the horrible bible commands, such as those to slaughter and enslave. Most in fact back those laws up, such as not killing, since death sentences for 'crimes' are not considered murder, and laws against freedom of sexuality such as killing 'adulterers' are still there, right on that supposedly good stuff list. There are a few nice suggestions to feed the poor and don't cheat in business, but that's nothing. Are there any particular ones on that page you think actually make up for the bad? That's what I want to see, not a few petty or vague nicey things which pale compared to the shit in the bible.

3- I can let you know clearly that your subjective experiences aren't something I share. I wouldn't add adjectives like crazy, stupid, ignorant, closed-minded, silly or foolish to the word claim. If I had questions I'd ask them respectfully and with an open mind. Your belief in fairies doesn't force me to accept anything. You believe it's true, that's great.. it has nothing to do with my view of reality until it presents itself or it's evidence to me. I can't disprove any of your subjective experisnces. If you live your life without infringing on anyone else's freedoms and you make a positive influsence on society; If you handle reality logically and rationally; it's far more likely that you have insight that I do not, rather than you're delusional.

Then you are giving flowers fairies more respect and credibility than they have earned. By default you are extending this to the belief, probably because you think faith is an admirable thing. You must think that or you wouldn't do it, since faith is illogical and counterproductive to any and all truths searched for. It just doesn't make sense to pre-decide what the answer is going to be, not if one is searching for the real answers. Faith should clue you in to the fact that reality, logic and rationality are NOT part of the picture.

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Scented Nectar the reason you can say what you wish about God is the freewill He has given mankind.

What is the purpose of this free will? If the outcome of it will lead to your god deciding to torture everyone who uses it to choose anything he doesn't like, then isn't it like me building a highway, letting a kid wander onto it, and not stopping it? When the price of the wrong choice is eternal torture, only a sadist will force this choice on others. If your god loved you, he would take away your choice to do the things that would get you into such eternal trouble. Just like I would take away the choice of a little kid about to wander onto the highway or in front of a train. If your god simply wants to filter out the 'deserving' from the 'unworthy', then he could simply wiggle his nose and the bad ones would just disappear. Why would he need to punish anyone? Eternal punishment means you don't even get the chance to learn a lesson and try things over. Why would your god keep the dead alive just to punish them?

If God were who you claimed Him to be you would surely be toast by now.

When I refer to your god, I go by what your rulebook the bible says about him. It's not my claims. If I were to make up deities, they would be nice and happy ones, moral, and never harmful or torturey like your god. By the way, according to your rulebook, your god will be torturing me after I die, not right now, while never stopping me from doing the things which he's decided he should torture me for.

I know you do not claim God at all however you can not disprove Him and that said if He does exsist then your wrong because you are not toast yet.

Then you should believe in my gods, just in case. If you let even one houseplant die during your life, you will end up being tortured forever by the Parkinglot Paving Pixies (kinda like your devil) where you will forever be a weed in its dying painful moments of wilted agony, moments that will never end. Unless you repent by planting 10 trees for every plant you've killed. If you've ever used Round-Up, you may as well give up, you're going to the parking lot for sure. Also, just in case, you better believe in all the other religions out there, both the types that have already been thought up, and even the ones which haven't yet. Just in case. Maybe you should avoid stepping on sidewalk cracks too, just in case. Don't drink water close to bedtime, just in case you need to get up in the middle of the night which is when the boogey man rules, just in case he's real. Better get some scientology auditing too, just in case thetan parasites are real. Just in case, you know? Unless of course you can disprove any of these things.

As far as hell is concerned it is a real place but far different than you think. It's a place where you will be allowed to carry on as you do on this forum, hating God with all your being and never able to love again.

No atheist hates god, since he doesn't exist. We tend to hate what believers say their gods are commanding, and if your god did exist, he would be hated because of his shitty personality and cruelty. But luckily he doesn't exist, except in your mind. You might be mistaking opinions about a hateful fictional character with the hatred of a real person/being. My ability to love is fully intact, by the way. Just because I don't love an imaginary being who is ordering me to love him under threat of torture, does not mean love isn't there when it comes to real people and life. The only emotional state you will find missing from atheists is blind faith.

This is with out a doubt more awful than anyone can conceive. A burning hell is something one can imagine and probably the worst thing one could imagine as a punishment. Just responding to some of the things you have stated in this discussion and somethings to think about if you wish.

I don't need to think about it. If it were real, sure, I'd have to think about how best to avoid the nastiness your god threatens me with, cuz the gun would be to my head. Guess what? Here's some good news for you. God is not real, and neither is his hell threat. Now go out there and enjoy life, love authentically rather than by command, and do the things YOU feel are moral and good. Then you will find a 'heaven' of not being enslaved by an imaginary being and the organizations that claim to speak for it.

[Scented Nectar]

If I were to make up deities, they would be nice and happy ones, moral, and never harmful or torturey like your god.

Just want to note, so no one is confused, that when I wrote the above, I meant if I were to make up a deity for real, believing it on faith. I'm not referring to my flower fairies and parking lot hell, which I obviously don't believe in.

[Godscreated]

Scented Nectar God is not forcing me to love Him it's my choice it's what I want to do. I do go out living life in and with love and I try to live a good moral life and not because I'm commanded to I do this I do this to show others what God has done in and for my life. I try to do the things I should in thanks to God for redeeming this unworthy person. There's no way I can deny Gods love for me because His love cost Him a very high price. I know you do not understand this because you have chosen to disbelieve, that is a privilege God has given us, but your disbelief can not and will not change the fact that God is real. Your disblief does not cancel out my experiences with God. Why is it you believe God would be forcing one believe in Him, just because He gives us choices does not constitute force. Many people make wrong choices in their lives and pay a penalty for that choice and sometimes that penalty is for life and no one forced them to and they knew the consequences for their actions.