the hammer of homosexuality

[TheRocketSurgeon]

Sadly, that's a pretty good description of the average Southerner's view of Christian doctrine.

"Well, if I'd known you were one of those I wouldn't have wasted my time. When Hank kicks the shit out of you I'll be there, counting my money and laughing. I'll kiss Hank's ass for you, you bunless cut-wienered kraut-eater."

http://www.jhuger.com/kissing-hanks-ass

[Drich]

What the fuck are you talking about?

It's sarcasm, genius. 

It's simply pointing out the hypocrisy of the current crusade (and by current, I mean roughly the last century, though of course the suppression, harassment, and murder of homosexuals in the name of God goes back much further than that) against the LGBT community by Christians in this country, when they're not going after people to whom the Bible dedicates quite a few more verses and prohibitions, such as fornicators like myself. All the scenarios above are not an "appeal to bigotry"

Soo.. Being a self titled 'rocket surgeon' appearently means at no point in your 'studies' as anyone explained nor had you ever looked up what a stereotype/Stereotyping and bigotry is? allow me to be the first to introduce you to the proper definition.
ster·e·o·type
/ˈsterēəˌtīp/
noun
noun: stereotype; plural noun: stereotypes
1.a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing.

big·ot·ry
/ˈbiɡətrē/
noun
noun: bigotry; plural noun: bigotries
intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.

So how was your response a an appeal to bigoted stereotypes? Let's look at your follow up:

but a highlighting of hypocrisy, since if those activist Christians were truly as serious about their Bible's prohibitions as they claim to be when screaming "GOD HATES YOU, FAGGOT!" at people, they would also be going after people like me, who are not gay but who nevertheless violate Biblical prohibitions. They should be knocking on my door, so to speak.

In light of what I have said in my initial post on this thread "That Homosexuality is just a sexual sin like any other (no better no worse)" I (A Christian) laid out the biblical response all Christians SHOULD take. Which BTW summarized what you said in the above statement. However rather than speak on point or ask a question concerning those "Hate Fags" under the banner of God. You pressed the idea that ALL Christianity shares this view, not just a radical subset. So in essence you have taken the actions of a radical minority and applied it to the whole of Christianity.

Look Again at your words in the following quote. You further highlight the hate that radical anti gay christians have and apply it to the whole of the religion. Don't look now sport that is not just 'intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.' This action also files under the definition of stereotyping as well: "a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing." In this case the whole of Christianity and or Christian Doctrine.

Yet they're not there, because I'm a "normal" heterosexual, in their eyes, so while I might be a sinner, I'm not a target for victimization and harassment.

Finally, what in the world is "Rather than look at what scripture actually says thus defining what a proper Christian response should be"? I don't give a fuck what your scriptures say your "proper Christian response should be". The proper response is leave everyone who isn't a member of your faith the fuck alone.Unfortunately, that seems to not be the way a number of y'all want to play it, so you're going to get my scorn and derision until you realize that you don't get the right to harass people for their sexuality or any other sin.

Do you see it? You do Not care how actual Christianity works, This is stereotyping because you have asserted your feelings on how you THINK ALL of Christianity works on this matter, and this is also Bigotry because we all should do as you say rather than hold fast to our religious beliefs. (which again means we should treat everyone the same who fall under sexual sin.) Because you perceive that we ALL don't, (Even though I clearly outline that we do) this generates hate and intolerance in you.

So much so that you can not even acknoweledge that a proper biblical response from a Christian should follow what you yourself have more or less outlined. But rather than be on side, you drag out the stereotype that all Christians are hate mongers, and assign that picture to all of Christianity and begin to argue strawmen of your own design, rather than speak to what I have said.


This makes you the worst type of hypocrite. One who openly uses bigotry and hate to try and offset the bigotry and hate that you yourself whip up. Hitler did this against the Jews. He like you took what a very small number of Jews were doing and applied it to every man woman and child of that race, despite what they really thought or believed. Because he like you Didn't care what actually going on. he saw an opportunity to persecute, and he took it.

So good job "thinker." I guess your going to count this as another 'win?'

[drfuzzy]

Bible for the moment aside, and for the sake of argument; Homosexuality is a mental illness, its been medically proven study after study.

The American Psychiatric Association removed homosexuality from its list of mental illnesses in 1974.  There are Xtian websites who still claim it's a mental illness, but no professional organization has agreed with them for over 40 years.  Here is one site giving the history:
http://www.behaviorismandmentalhealth.co...went-away/

[jenny1972]

Like everything, God is either directly responsible for homosexuals; or he allows it to happen so gives consent; or he is not actually as in control of things as we are told.

Theists' use of the word "natural" is dumbfounding, considering they think God is supernatural, and he does everything that ever happens with magic. Homosexuality is completely natural, in any meaningful sense of the word.

Homophobia is often caused by a combination of ignorance and insecurity, in my opinion. I expect it's almost certain the men writing the bible were homophobic, in fact I am surprised there are not many more references to it (there's barely any, and Christians blow it way out of proportion).

Maybe even then they understood about "The lady doth protest too much." They seem to understand it better than many Christians today, who seem hell bent on broadcasting their thinly veiled repressed urges.

i agree i argue relentlessly with christians on {snip} about just that . God can change peoples minds they  believe completely  as i do also , however when i point out that God can change homosexuals yet does not its funny to see their responses and reasonings as to why that doesnt happen , as well as all their other contradictory reasonings its amusing ...

---

Agreed. Even if being gay (or bisexual, which is too much for simpletons to be able to jam into their black and white thinking) was a choice, who the fuck cares? Worry about your own genitals and keep your nose out of other people's, except by invitation.

"Being gay offends God" = "Being gay offends me"

Can't stop talking about the virtues of male/male anal sex = Can't stop thinking about other men's arse holes

Well, if they kept their noses out of other peoples' business, what would be the point of Christianity? I mean, they claim it's a "personal relationship with God" and all that, but it's pretty clear to the rest of us that there's a lot  more involved, most of it having to do with sticking noses where they're not welcome and pressuring people psychologically.

My question isn't whether it's biological or not (it's pretty clear to me that it is), it's why they've chosen to focus on this one "sin" so heavily, out of the thousands of options, when 

1) It has virtually no presence in the Bible... a couple of obscure references in the Pentateuch, a clear reference and a couple of vague references in the New Testament, and not much else, and


2) There are many, many other sins spoken of in much clearer terms, which are ignored almost entirely, such as fortune telling, for instance. Divorce is spoken against by Jesus in the clearest possible terms, and forbidden in very strong language, yet we hear nothing about it except an occasional sermon in the actual church, and nothing beyond its doors where I'm forced to give a shit about it.

I've never managed to figure out how homosexuality became their pet bigotry. I know the history of Roman-style prejudice and conceptualization of the gay thing (e.g. expected/perceived femininity of gay men, and the idea that being the "bottom" or the one doing the sucking is somehow worse than the one on "top"), but I can't figure out how it got to be where it is, as a central-focus issue for this generation's primary bigotry.

yes its very very obvious that its not so much because the Bible speak against it , divorce and remarriage and women wearing pants is also spoken against in the Bible and even referred to as an " abomination" yet its perfectly fine since they agree with it and think its ok , they simply are personally against it it has really nothing to do with what is in the Bible thats just an excuse to be against what they personally dislike and disagree with . complete hypocrites ....

Moderator Notice
I hope you don't need to be told again about the 30/30 rule.

[TheRocketSurgeon]

Do you see it? You do Not care how actual Christianity works, This is stereotyping because you have asserted your feelings on how you THINK ALL of Christianity works on this matter, and this is also Bigotry because we all should do as you say rather than hold fast to our religious beliefs. (which again means we should treat everyone the same who fall under sexual sin.) Because you perceive that we ALL don't, (Even though I clearly outline that we do) this generates hate and intolerance in you.

So much so that you can not even acknoweledge that a proper biblical response from a Christian should follow what you yourself have more or less outlined. But rather than be on side, you drag out the stereotype that all Christians are hate mongers, and assign that picture to all of Christianity and begin to argue strawmen of your own design, rather than speak to what I have said.


This makes you the worst type of hypocrite. One who openly uses bigotry and hate to try and offset the bigotry and hate that you yourself whip up. Hitler did this against the Jews. He like you took what a very small number of Jews were doing and applied it to every man woman and child of that race, despite what they really thought or believed. Because he like you Didn't care what actually going on. he saw an opportunity to persecute, and he took it.

So good job "thinker." I guess your going to count this as another 'win?'

Wow. Way to completely fuck up everything I was saying! Rather impressive, actually. Beat that strawman up well....c'mon, KICK IT!

Your entire objection to me is illogical, for a reason that you, ironically, pointed out yourself. Why would I mean "all" Christians, when I have pointed out what Christian doctrine actually says? Clearly, I am referring to the vocal radicals who feel that their personal religious beliefs entitle them to reach into the lives of people not of their own churches and make misery in the lives of those who are different.

At no point do I say or suggest that every Christian does this. I am engaged to be married to one who does not, and whose famliy once thought that way but have since moderated their views quite nicely. My own parents, while still actively anti-gay as Believers, have matured enough in their beliefs to have recently attended a gay service of an old family friend they know.

The phrase "Yet they're not there" simply means that the same ones I see harassing gays don't bother me or anyone like me, making them hypocrites and assholes. 

Invoking Godwin's Law here makes you a pretty big asshole, by the way. Even if I really had been saying that every Christian does that (again, I'm not, and not even close by any reasonable observer's standard), you guys are the overwhelming social majority, enjoy most of the political power in this country, and have houses of worship on almost every other street corner in this country. There's a massive one right across the street from where I am sitting, that takes up the view of every window on that side of the apartment. For this in any way to equate to what the Nazis did, I would have to be a member of a powerful social and political majority (hint: that's you) making a sweeping misrepresentation of a powerless minority (hint: that's me), in a way that suggested to others that perhaps it was time for the majority to put a stop to or otherwise harass/suppress/eliminate the minority.

[TheRocketSurgeon]

Self-quoting from your own highlighted words above, with italics added for emphasis:

"Unfortunately, that seems to not be the way a number of y'all want to play it, so you're going to get my scorn and derision until you realize that you don't get the right to harass people for their sexuality or any other sin."

A number of y'all = some of you, not all of you.

QED

[Edwardo Piet]

You can relax now TRS.... Dritch lost the argument by default for comparing you to Hitler.

[Drich]

Wow. Way to completely fuck up everything I was saying! Rather impressive, actually. Beat that strawman up well....c'mon, KICK IT!

Your entire objection to me is illogical, for a reason that you, ironically, pointed out yourself. Why would I mean "all" Christians, when I have pointed out what Christian doctrine actually says?

You did not quote Christian Doctrine, or even make reference to it. You simply pointed to what your beliefs on the matter where and how they should be perceived by Christians in this country.
As referenced by this paragraph from post #83

It's simply pointing out the hypocrisy of the current crusade (and by current, I mean roughly the last century, though of course the suppression, harassment, and murder of homosexuals in the name of God goes back much further than that) against the LGBT community by Christians in this country, when they're not going after people to whom the Bible dedicates quite a few more verses and prohibitions, such as fornicators like myself.

So can we now add liar, to you list of negative qualities? Because you very specifically called out "Christians of this Country" and no sub set as you are now claiming. When someone says "The Christians of this country" You were making a sweeping generalization about this group, and made absolutely no distinctions that set anyone in that group apart from anyone else. It Should be Taken in the Same Bigoted vain as a racist saying: "The Black people of this country" When A Bigot refers to "the Black people of the Last 100 years in this country" what do you think he is referring to? It mean ALL (except the good ones) Which is EXACTLY What you meant. Everyone Except those in whom you thought were Good. (Your family)

All the scenarios above are not an "appeal to bigotry" but a highlighting of hypocrisy, since if those activist Christians were truly as serious about their Bible's prohibitions as they claim to be when screaming "GOD HATES YOU, FAGGOT!" at people, they would also be going after people like me, who are not gay but who nevertheless violate Biblical prohibitions. They should be knocking on my door, so to speak.

But again, Those are a radical element of Christianity, Not even a close representation of all of "The Christians of the last century in this country." Especially in light of what I said in my response to the OP. You were trying to arrogantly correct my doctrine to reflect what you perceive "Christian doctrine of the last 100 years in this country" to be, and then lump me in with that group despite what I actually said..

Clearly, I am referring to the vocal radicals who feel that their personal religious beliefs entitle them to reach into the lives of people not of their own churches and make misery in the lives of those who are different.

Clearly this is a lie because you made no such distinction. Further more when I presented with what would be an 'alternative doctrine' to your stereotype, one that would align itself with a more moderate dealing with Homosexuals, you answered with Sarcasm in Post #69, Sarcasm You took great pains to spell out in detail to show how only one Christian world view concerning Homosexuals dominated "Christian Hate" thus justifying your anti-Christian words in post 83.

At no point do I say or suggest that every Christian does this. I am engaged to be married to one who does not, and whose famliy once thought that way but have since moderated their views quite nicely. My own parents, while still actively anti-gay as Believers, have matured enough in their beliefs to have recently attended a gay service of an old family friend they know.

The phrase "Yet they're not there" simply means that the same ones I see harassing gays don't bother me or anyone like me, making them hypocrites and assholes. 

Then why the sarcasm? Why the confrontation and effort try and correct my doctrine to coincide with what you think the Christian position has been this last century? Why would anyone set out to hold someone responsible for the doings of someone else unless they thought that 'someone else' were equally responsible? Meaning why start off with "it's sarcasm" when the doctrinal guidelines I laid out do not coincide with your indictment of the Christians of this country for the last century?

The simple easy answer? it is far easier to try and red herring or strawman my doctrine off topic so as to try invalidate it, rather than admit it and concede the topic. You want to be angry, you want to hate everyone except your family. However you were caught, and now your looking for loop holes so as to not admit what you've done.
Again, This is akin to any Bigoted hate speech that lumps all people (except the good ones/Again your words not mine) into a single group despite what they may say or do that is contrary to your views of them.

Invoking Godwin's Law here makes you a pretty big asshole, by the way. Even if I really had been saying that every Christian does that (again, I'm not, and not even close by any reasonable observer's standard),

Read your own B/S dude. I am directly responding to what YOU Wrote. (all but the good ones right?) which I must not be apart of otherwise why not just concede the argument (By simply remaining silent?) Why go on a witch hunt answering my post to the OP with sarcasim, and a open ended post that made no special dispensation for the doctrine I had posted? A doctrine which would have made me and I believe the majority of Christians now a days 'one of the good ones?'

you guys are the overwhelming social majority, enjoy most of the political power in this country,

If this were true do you really think Gay marriage would be a thing right now?

and have houses of worship on almost every other street corner in this country. There's a massive one right across the street from where I am sitting, that takes up the view of every window on that side of the apartment. For this in any way to equate to what the Nazis did, I would have to be a member of a powerful social and political majority (hint: that's you) making a sweeping misrepresentation of a powerless minority (hint: that's me), in a way that suggested to others that perhaps it was time for the majority to put a stop to or otherwise harass/suppress/eliminate the minority.

lol, no. The Nazi's started just like You guys are. A hand full of people taking the actions of a few, and misrepresenting the facts to try and apply to everyone who was not like minded. using fear and hate to rally majority support. This is exactly what you've done here.

[TheRocketSurgeon]

Wow. Way to completely fuck up everything I was saying! Rather impressive, actually. Beat that strawman up well....c'mon, KICK IT!

Your entire objection to me is illogical, for a reason that you, ironically, pointed out yourself. Why would I mean "all" Christians, when I have pointed out what Christian doctrine actually says?

You did not quote Christian Doctrine, or even make reference to it. You simply pointed to what your beliefs on the matter where and how they should be perceived by Christians in this country.
As referenced by this paragraph from post #83

It's simply pointing out the hypocrisy of the current crusade (and by current, I mean roughly the last century, though of course the suppression, harassment, and murder of homosexuals in the name of God goes back much further than that) against the LGBT community by Christians in this country, when they're not going after people to whom the Bible dedicates quite a few more verses and prohibitions, such as fornicators like myself.

So can we now add liar, to you list of negative qualities? Because you very specifically called out "Christians of this Country" and no sub set as you are now claiming. When someone says "The Christians of this country"  You were making a sweeping generalization about this group, and made absolutely no distinctions that set anyone in that group apart from anyone else. It Should be Taken in the Same Bigoted vain as a racist saying: "The Black people of this country" When A Bigot refers to "the Black people of the Last 100 years in this country" what do you think he is referring to? It mean ALL (except the good ones) Which is EXACTLY What you meant. Everyone Except those in whom you thought were Good. (Your family)

Please. Any reasonable person... and you seem to insist on being unreasonable, at this point... would clearly understand that I do not refer to every single person who is a Christian in the USA, only that we have a particularly virulent branch (generally, the evangelicals and the more conservative Catholics) which has a clear and continuing history of doing this.

However, I did mean "all except the good ones", since there are a large number of good ones, as well, such as the personal examples I listed. Other good Christians include Kingpin and C_L, here, who despite having religious objections to the practice of homosexuality, as the Bible warrants for Christians, are perfectly willing to accommodate the rights of others in a pluralistic society. I consider them friends and allies, on my list of personal examples, though I certainly recognize that they are not the only ones whom I would consider such!

Are you denying that Christians in this country have a history of abuse of the gay population of this country?

All the scenarios above are not an "appeal to bigotry" but a highlighting of hypocrisy, since if those activist Christians were truly as serious about their Bible's prohibitions as they claim to be when screaming "GOD HATES YOU, FAGGOT!" at people, they would also be going after people like me, who are not gay but who nevertheless violate Biblical prohibitions. They should be knocking on my door, so to speak.

But again, Those are a radical element of Christianity, Not even a close representation of all of "The Christians of the last century in this country." Especially in light of what I said in my response to the OP. You were trying to arrogantly correct my doctrine to reflect what you perceive "Christian doctrine of the last 100 years in this country" to be, and then lump me in with that group despite what I actually said..

As pointed out by several people, along with me, if you're radical enough that you would tell your daughter you won't attend her wedding because of your personal religious views, then yes I do consider you to be one of the broad category I briefly described. I don't know whether or not you're the type who would yell something cruel at a homosexual (I doubt that this is the case, given your current objections, but that far extreme is not necessary; there are many ways to be cruel to gays, and screaming at them is only one way).

Clearly, I am referring to the vocal radicals who feel that their personal religious beliefs entitle them to reach into the lives of people not of their own churches and make misery in the lives of those who are different.

Clearly this is a lie because you made no such distinction. Further more when I presented with what would be an 'alternative doctrine' to your stereotype, one that would align itself with a more moderate dealing with Homosexuals, you answered with Sarcasm in Post #69, Sarcasm You took great pains to spell out in detail to show how only one Christian world view concerning Homosexuals dominated "Christian Hate" thus justifying your anti-Christian words in post 83.

As I already wrote, I certainly consider your position more moderate than the screamers, but no less bigoted, and only somewhat less-harmful.

At no point do I say or suggest that every Christian does this. I am engaged to be married to one who does not, and whose famliy once thought that way but have since moderated their views quite nicely. My own parents, while still actively anti-gay as Believers, have matured enough in their beliefs to have recently attended a gay service of an old family friend they know.

The phrase "Yet they're not there" simply means that the same ones I see harassing gays don't bother me or anyone like me, making them hypocrites and assholes. 

Then why the sarcasm? Why the confrontation and effort try and correct my doctrine to coincide with what you think the Christian position has been this last century? Why would anyone set out to hold someone responsible for the doings of someone else unless they thought that 'someone else' were equally responsible? Meaning why start off with "it's sarcasm" when the doctrinal guidelines I laid out do not coincide with your indictment of the Christians of this country for the last century?

The simple easy answer? it is far easier to try and red herring or strawman my doctrine off topic so as to try invalidate it, rather than admit it and concede the topic. You want to be angry, you want to hate everyone except your family. However you were caught, and now your looking for loop holes so as to not admit what you've done.
Again, This is akin to any Bigoted hate speech that lumps all people (except the good ones/Again your words not mine) into a single group despite what they may say or do that is contrary to your views of them.

Um, "want to hate everyone"... wut?

No, I want to not have to be angry about the harm I see done by Christian bigotry, both subtle and overt, and to listen to stories from people who are driven to outright despair by the actions of their religious friends and relatives. I want to see more Christians who show (real) love regardless of whether a person's sexuality matches their religious standards. You clearly have a compulsion to pretend that my righteous anger toward the people who hurt gays with their words and deeds means I hate anyone who is a Believer, and that clearly is not so.

Invoking Godwin's Law here makes you a pretty big asshole, by the way. Even if I really had been saying that every Christian does that (again, I'm not, and not even close by any reasonable observer's standard),

Read your own B/S dude. I am directly responding to what YOU Wrote. (all but the good ones right?) which I must not be apart of otherwise why not just concede the argument (By simply remaining silent?) Why go on a witch hunt answering my post to the OP with sarcasim, and a open ended post that made no special dispensation for the doctrine I had posted? A doctrine which would have made me and I believe the majority of Christians now a days 'one of the good ones?'

I do not consider you "one of the good ones". You consider yourself one of the good ones. And I stand by what I said in the post you are quoting here, every word.

you guys are the overwhelming social majority, enjoy most of the political power in this country,

If this were true do you really think Gay marriage would be a thing right now?

What, you think atheists are responsible for the victories in the gay marriage debate? As I pointed out with the example of my inlaws and parents, many Christians have changed or moderated their views in the past couple of decades, especially the past decade. Just as the Civil Rights Movement was won when whites began to see that White Supremacy was unsupportable, thanks to the actions of activists like Dr. King, and felt sickened after witnessing the cruelty that was enacted against the black minority population, it was the action of a coalition of gays, liberal Christians, and other hetero allies that enabled this gay rights victory. The fact remains that, overall, Christians make up 75% of this country. You guys aren't in danger of being genuinely repressed, even though the fundamentalist types tend to scream oppression when they are stopped from trying to enforce their theocratic leanings upon others.

and have houses of worship on almost every other street corner in this country. There's a massive one right across the street from where I am sitting, that takes up the view of every window on that side of the apartment. For this in any way to equate to what the Nazis did, I would have to be a member of a powerful social and political majority (hint: that's you) making a sweeping misrepresentation of a powerless minority (hint: that's me), in a way that suggested to others that perhaps it was time for the majority to put a stop to or otherwise harass/suppress/eliminate the minority.

lol, no. The Nazi's started just like You guys are. A hand full of people taking the actions of a few, and misrepresenting the facts to try and apply to everyone who was not like minded. using fear and hate to rally majority support. This is exactly what you've done here.

Soooooo you're claiming that we atheists are going to convince the liberal half of the Christian church to turn on the conservative half? Because that's the only way I can see that your claim, here, makes any sense as an argument. I'm just trying to wrap my mind around such lunatic paranoia. Difficult to do.

[ronedee]

Your "bad side"? Brother, I did nine years flat in Maximum-security prison, surrounded by serial rapists and men who'd as soon stab you as look at you. I've seen almost as much blood and violent death as a combat veteran. What do you think you could possibly do or say that would make me bat an eyelash?

I think you drastically underestimate the amount of hurt you have caused your daughter, even if she hides it well out of her love for you.

And I agree, I'd be most curious to see this link showing homosexuality is a mental illness.

LOL! I don't care about your prison life it has nothing to do w/ our exchanges here, but to make you look like you have something to prove. Suffice it to say, your
list of bs is nothing compared to what I've been through in my life... but I don't feel the need to relay it to you. And frankly it's none of your fucking business.

If you want to go on in an intelligent conversation, drop the shit and name calling. Otherwise find another sounding board for your apparent need to polish your manhood!

Most of you here in this thread don't know me. And I won't engage your questions unless they are free of name calling, and outrageous speculation. What's the point? You have your minds made up about me, and what I have to say. I'll just do drive-by shoots.... that's more fun any way!