French Terror Attacks, scores dead

[Wyrd of Gawd]

I think all of the crocodile tears over the Paris massacre is asinine. We are at war. We have been at war for decades. There are no innocent victims. Everyone is on one side or the other. We kill the enemy and destroy their countries. France has been bombing in Syria for a long time, contributing to the exodus into Europe. So when a handful of the enemy counter attack with their limited means and cause mayhem and havoc we start bleating like scared sheep.

This war is expected to last 100 years. People on both sides will die. Misery will touch everyone. Deal with it.

[Edwardo Piet]

Yes you not only can talk about the negative consequences of religiously motivated extremism, we all should be talking about that. All I said is that atheist not having that particular baggage will not automatically make all atheist saints(strike the word saints, they were not the nice guys people painted them out to be).

I know that but you said I implied otherwise. Where??? Why would I ever imply that atheists can't do bad things as much as anybody else? I said they can't do things that are motivated by their atheism. But religion on the other hand can be a motivational factor.

But one thing though, "extremism" is coddled by the moderates and the left, all be it well intended, under the guise of protecting pluralism.

I don't even think extremism is the problem, check my earlier posts in this thread. I only said extremism on this occasion to give you some leeway because I didn't want you to argue against that point I wanted you to focus on this claim you have made that I'm somehow implying that I believe atheists don't do bad things for other reasons. You claim I said lots of things that I didn't say. I pointed that out and instead of conceding on that point you said I implied it. But I didn't imply it at all I didn't say it implicity or explicitly. I am asking for you to tell me where I said what you claim I said, and if I need to I will go back and quote you on the absurd claim that you misrepresented me as making. It offends me that you could possibily think that I was such an idiot that I would actually think atheists are incapable of doing bad things as much as theists are. Not only did I not say it or imply it but since I didn't say or imply it why would you think I would think that? Do you really think that little of me? 

 The word "bigot" and "racist" while can apply rightfully to some, it unwittingly is also used to shut down criticism of religion. X Muslims and even some still in it who cant speak in public where they live that they want us to have those "politically incorrect" conversations. Ayaan Hirsi Ali a former Muslim would not agree with the left that it is always good to censor to keep the peace.

I agree. You seem to have shifted more to my perspective but you still need to admit to the claim you made saying I said something that I didn't say, whether it's explicitly or implicitly said I simply didn't say it. I would never imply something so ridiculous unless I was a complete idiot and I'm not.

[Edwardo Piet]

I was too upset to respond to the other points on this post earlier after the misrepresentation. It turns out you made more than one!

So I'll respond now...

 Just because you take away religious motivations, other motivations will not exist.

I know, I never said nor implied otherwise. 

Atheists can suffer from flawed logic too.

I know I never said nor implied otherwise.

We are individuals too, we cant forget that just because we hold the common "off" position.

I know that I never said nor implied otherwise.

Honestly I never said those things neither implicitly nor explicitly and if you really think that I think such things despite my not even remotely alluding to them or suggesting them then you really must not have a very high opinion of me. It's quite upsetting to me because I have a high opinion of you, even now after this misrepresentation because I've liked so many of your posts. I'm just hoping we can come to an understanding here, I don't want to be misrepresented like this by someone who I respect so much in such a way that it seems as though they think so little of me when I thought the respect was mutual.

Normally being misrepresented would piss me off but I like you and so because I like you: it's more upsetting that annoying.

[abaris]

Good thing that France has strict gun control which prevents this kind of things.

And nevermind that these shooters were smuggled over the borders. You point was what exactly? Maybe that all these people in the theatre should have been packing?

[Wyrd of Gawd]

Good thing that France has strict gun control which prevents this kind of things.

And nevermind that these shooters were smuggled over the borders. You point was what exactly? Maybe that all these people in the theatre should have been packing?

Does anyone know how it took for the French cops to show up?  It seems like the shooters had hours to carry out their killing.

[SofaKingHigh]

Not wanting to get in an argument, but it seems to be a little bit petty to be getting so het up over being asked to pray, given the situation.

People are religious, quite what you expect I'm not sure.

It's the ridiculousness of being explicitly told that in situations as bad as this atheists should be praying too. They're religious so what do I expect? I expect them to pray. We're atheists though so if I refuse to pray what the fuck do they expect? Are they seriously going to suggest I'm a bad person for not praying to an imaginary God?

You're right... at times like this it's not important and that's why such bullshit like this pisses me off when people try to pressure me with that religious bullshit. Pray as much as you like, knock your socks off but don't expect atheists to pray for Paris that makes no fucking sense. As if praying actually means you give a shit. It means you're leaving an important matter to an imaginary person and if people didn't worship and pray to imaginary people there wouldn't be suicide bombings like this.

It is very relevant: It's thanks to religion that we have suicide bombers like this in the first place.

Sorry, I just get a bit saddened by some on here, the above post a perfect example, seeming to get more annoyed at the request to pray than the atrocity itself.

Like I said, no argument wanted here, just an observation.

[WinterHold]

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Atlas, we've jousted on here before, but for the main part, I agree with most fo what you have said here......apart from this.  I can assure you that the IS jihadists are more than capable of this type of attack.....the planning and coordination are being well over played in the media.....8 gunman, in a capital city, strapped with suicide belts, would be disappointed with the death toll.  I say this with a heavy heart and in no way meant to disrespect aanyone here, but this attack has all the hallmarks of a Jihadist attack.

3 suicide bombers outside Stad-de-Paris with no casualties and 80,000 people inside?  Come on, this was amateurish.

You question them getting their rifles past security?  Which security?  The non-existent security on the borders?  Or the "security" on the door at the Bataclan?  We're talking Friday night bouncers here, unarmed and on a measly wage.  Think about it.

You keep asking about the "security?"  I'm not entirely sure what you are expecting?  The streets covered in armed police and Bomb disposal units at every corner?

The questions should not be directed at the forces on the ground, for what they were, they should be directed at the intelligence services.  A ball was dropped, big time... there is no way an attack like this remains totally radio silent in the staging week before the attack...no way.

Playing the blame game is pure deflection at this point though......those cowardly fucks are the only ones to blames, if there is a God, may he fu(k them in the ass for all eternity.

---

My experience with Jihadists comes from where I live; I live in the Middle East.  I'm very close to the turmoil of Syria and Iraq.

I actually expect something like that at an international concert; at least a metal detector at the door. 
What we saw in Paris is not what to be expected from a country "facing a global threat and fighting a war"; a country which was targeted before in the "Charlie Hebdo" incident.

I wouldn't say every corner; but the stadium and the concert; at least; that's not just for ISIS; that's for other lunatics who might commit something. We''re speaking Holland & Merkal. I expect a lot. Though I never visited Europe, I don't know how things are there.
In the Middle East, security gets so tight you don't even get to scratch. I thought it was the same outside. And hence the low capabilities of Middle Eastern countries.

Though I indeed blame the intelligence agencies too; but not for "not doing their job", but actually for doing it so nicely. 
My belief SofaKingHigh, is that ISIS is funded and even supported by many players in the international theater. Since the war on terror began, the war economy went sky-high, and saved many countries from going broke because of the economical crisis (which was expected a very long time ago btw).

ISIS came after 2008. What it simply did, is that it enriched a lot of countries that used them as an excuse to sell more arms. They even used them to smuggle oil in cheap prices (i.e stealing Syria's oil), and recently the increased their brutaities to force Syrians to flee to some countries in Europe (i.e provide a lot of cheap working hands that would work no matter what). All what ISIS did, was enough to delay the upcoming economical fall..read about it; it's predicted, 2008 was only the beginning. There will be other economical crashes.

I live in the Middle East. ISIS is not serious. A lot of Muslims hate its smell because of the killing. To be with them, you need to have a high sense of blood loving and sadism. Even if a Muslim "fanatic"; he/she doesn't want to see somebody behead somebody else and put their head on their bodies like a horror movie.

The command of ISIS is intelligence agencies from around the world; main suspects are the CIA & Mossad.
The foot soldiers, are psychopaths, gangsters, sometimes agents, and indeed : MUSLIM FANATICS. But why do we forget the Muslims who turned crazy after America or France or Nato took a piece of them in the previous wars ? one pound of flesh for each drop of oil. Drone attacks ?

For example, check the similiarties between ISIS and Saudi Arabia : on of the biggest allies of the west.
Then check the Mossad cells that speak arabic and practice severe brutalization in combat (Gaza war is an example).
Then check how the CIA supported Jihadists against the soviets.

I'm not blaming. But it's an evil world. Though the whole game is about the economy.

[Brian37]

I think all of the crocodile tears over the Paris massacre is asinine.  We are at war.  We have been at war for decades.  There are no innocent victims.  Everyone is on one side or the other.  We kill the enemy and destroy their countries.  France has been bombing in Syria for a long time, contributing to the exodus into Europe.  So when a handful of the enemy counter attack with their limited means and cause mayhem and havoc we start bleating like scared sheep.  

This war is expected to last 100 years.  People on both sides will die.  Misery will touch everyone.  Deal with it.

What the fuck? Skip the nationality, skip the race and religion issues. When a individual, or group of people get hurt, they have an emotional reaction to that assault. Nobody should call the act unique, but it is nuts to expect humans not to react to trauma.

Agreeing that humans can and do fight, agreeing that there is plenty of blame to go around does not make the theocratic oppressive ideas far too much of the East is held hostage by, better than the secular west. Nobody should claim the west is perfect either. But that is fucking absurd to say French have no right to be pissed. You fuck with my family I'd get pissed too. Anyone would.

I'd say whatever response we have should not involve the same xenophobia or mob rule mentality, but all sides are NOT equal on this. 

"Shit happens" yea. Humans do this, yea. It is the downside of our species. But that doesn't mean humans cant our shouldn't have emotions in response to human cruelty.

[Brian37]

I am 49, Muslims and Jews and Christians have been at each other's throats even before I was born. I remember the hostages taken during the Olympics when I was a kid. But "get over it" no. I agree there is a war, but only one region of the world wants to stay stuck in it's own dark ages. That does not mean, Christians and Jews are guilt free. It merely means they have more of a leash on their religions.

[Brian37]

Christians used the bible to justify slavery. Christians used the bible to deny women the right to vote. Despite WW2 Jewish bigotry still existed in America, from Christians. Native Americans got fuck over because of Christianity. And sure, if I had my way Cheney would be on trial for war crimes. But two wrongs don't make a right. And the west is still collectively far more civil, and far more diverse than the East.