Muslims

[Catholic_Lady]

We can see MK here, our resident Muslim, and see that he is a perfectly good and moral person. If his interpretation/understanding of the Koran and of Islam was some sort of official Islamic law, documented in their doctrine, it would be completely fine. The Islam religion doesn't need to be obliterated. Just reformed.

Thanks for your kind words.  I am no authority in religion. All I can do is voice what I believe, and if it's on insight, perhaps others will see it.  The Quran is mostly a silent teacher. It's not meant to speak unless a speaker makes it speak. I believe God chosen leaders to guide us, but as they were rejected, he safeguarded the final one and cut him off from the community.  I think ultimately we need that chosen leader that God will manifest and unite humanity upon. 

A lot of my views to the credit is due to my parents.  My dad for example when once I tried to speak about the wisdom of cutting off fingers when stealing explained in a long conversation about context, time and place, and how now we have institutions of reforming people that back then they could not afford due to the circumstance the Prophet and his followers were in.  

He also believers other laws might have been for the circumstance (since for example society was so engrossed in fornication in public places it was necessary to be put some harsh rules).

I myself don't know if such a rule was meant for a certain time or all time. 

I would say those laws are perhaps eternal in the sense if the circumstance ever came up again, it would be required.  However in different circumstances the laws don't apply.

But as others say, we are a minority. And we aren't scholars.

Thank you for the explanation. Sounds like you and your dad interpret the Koran in a similar way that most of us Christians interpret the Old Testament. Neither should be taken literally.

[Mystic]

I am actually interested in studying the Old and new testament per your understanding since you are more charitable in finding gems in it that I would be. I've read a lot of it and I guess perhaps bias made me think a lot of it is boring or irrational. I've read some commentaries online on some confusing passages, but I perhaps I can start a Bible study thread where I ask you questions?

I don't like how people are hasty in concluding Quran is irrational and are not charitable to it, so I don't want to do the same with the Bible.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

These good Muslim folks, who are the majority, need to face this problem head on and figure out how they're going to deal with it.

Religions...all religions...define a" a good _________" differently.  A good catholic obeys the pope.  A good muslim obeys the koran.  What is needed is more bad muslims who are willing to say "fuck this primitive shit...it's the 21st century."

Based on observation of human nature there's a few legitimate cases of terrorism perpetrated by muslim fanatics.  However, it wouldn't surprise me if most of them weren't cooked up by various government agencies from around the world for their own nefarious purposes.  They've done it in the past and there's no reason why they wouldn't do it today.

People rob banks but you can go into banks without going through metal detectors.  https://bankrobbers.fbi.gov

What I see is that the governments are using the threat of terrorism to impose an oppressive police state.  They spy on everything you do, keep files on everyone, restrict your personal freedoms. They put their boot on hundreds of millions of ordinary people's necks and they might detect four or five potential terrorists in a year.  In the meantime they allow the gun runners and dope and illegal alien smugglers to run loose.  They do nothing to control the crooks who steal $billions in the financial sector.  But if a black kid is walking down the street the cop terrorists will fill him full of lead because "they feared for their lives".   

The refugee problem is a real human tragedy but it's caused by Western nations screwing with African and Middle Eastern countries.  Iceland and Paraguay don't screw with other people so the only problems they have are their own.  We could learn some good manners from them.

One thing is for sure: we will all pay a hefty price for our dummies' arrogance and stupidity.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

I am actually interested in studying the Old and new testament per your understanding since you are more charitable in finding gems in it that I would be. I've read a lot of it and I guess perhaps bias made me think a lot of it is boring or irrational. I've read some commentaries online on some confusing passages, but I perhaps I can start a Bible study thread where I ask you questions?

I don't like how people are hasty in concluding Quran is irrational and are not charitable to it, so I don't want to do the same with the Bible.

The Bible and the Koran use the same basic rule:  believe and obey without exception.

The Old Testament biblical stories are meant to show the application of one of the Ten Commandments that are listed in Exodus 34:10-28.

The best advice in the Protestant Bible is Proverbs 1:8-19.   https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...;MEV;VOICE

The more secular books of Ecclesiastes, and Sirach & Wisdom in the Catholic Bible have interesting thoughts on life.

The Koran is generally useless because it goes overboard with doom and gloom and doesn't have any useful suggestions.  It's not as racist as the Bible but that's about it.

The Bible and the Koran are better than the Book of Mormon, which is complete garbage.  In any case you would be better off worshipping your right big toe than the God and Allah characters depicted in the Bible and in the Koran.

[Catholic_Lady]

I am actually interested in studying the Old and new testament per your understanding since you are more charitable in finding gems in it that I would be. I've read a lot of it and I guess perhaps bias made me think a lot of it is boring or irrational. I've read some commentaries online on some confusing passages, but I perhaps I can start a Bible study thread where I ask you questions?

I don't like how people are hasty in concluding Quran is irrational and are not charitable to it, so I don't want to do the same with the Bible.

I think it would be a great idea to start a thread about it where you ask questions. Though I would say Chad and KingPin would be much better at answering things pertaining to the bible than I am. The con of being a Catholic is that most of us ordinary, non clergy Catholics don't know the bible as well, with the exception of the life of Jesus. The Church provides us with all the answers through doctrines/etc, so a lot of us get lazy about studying the bible lol. But we really should do so more often. But yes, please start a thread like that. I'm sure I'd learn a lot from King and Chad too.

[KevinM1]

Again, I have to ask what is the long term plan for the refugees?  The debate is focused on whether or not to let them in at all, but I haven't heard much in the way of what the plan is once they're here.  Once the immediate humanitarian crisis is addressed, then what?

I must admit I don't have an answer for that. I don't know. All I know is that these people are fleeing for their lives and they need help. We have to help them. At least take them in first so they are out of the immediate danger, and then work together to figure out how best to handle it once their lives aren't in danger anymore.

Yeah, I don't mind helping them.  I'm just not a fan on trying to figure out what to do with them on the fly.  I mean, really, 48-72 hours after they're settled into some kind of housing, the crisis portion is over and then it's long term care.  Winging it brings the risk of people falling through the cracks, both in terms of their own well being and our security for the inevitable bad ones that make it through.  Remember: government moves at, well, the speed of government.  Being agile and being able to respond rapidly isn't really its forte at any administrative level.

I just want to be confident that we can actually help them without screwing anyone - them or us - over.  It's not so much the cost (although I wouldn't be happy with merely supporting them indefinitely), but the logistics of having a colony of 10,000+ people just kind of there.  Is it an internment camp?  Will they be able to work towards learning English and getting jobs if they wanted?  Or are we expecting refugees to be taken in by families?

In other words, I'm curious/concerned about the shape of the help.  There are so many ways it can backfire for all involved.

[Catholic_Lady]

I agree completely. It's not a good situation for us (and obviously not for them). But I still think taking them in would be the right thing to do, even if it ends up hurting us somehow. It's a sacrifice and a risk, but it's the right thing I think.

[Minimalist]

Religions...all religions...define a" a good _________" differently.  A good catholic obeys the pope.  A good muslim obeys the koran.  What is needed is more bad muslims who are willing to say "fuck this primitive shit...it's the 21st century."

Like I said earlier, when I say "good Muslim" I just mean a good person to our 21st century standards. This does not need to be explained or analyzed. Someone who doesn't go around killing people and forcing others to believe what they believe... or someone who supports either of those acts.

They may be a distinct minority and, when they try to speak out they can end up dead very quickly ( See Bangladesh bloggers.)

Why don't you think people can change though? That was centuries ago.

Do you think for a moment I would trust scumbags like Huckabee and Carson?  Pat Robertson?  Billy Graham and his pissant son?  No.  Given a chance to exert political power these fuckers would be the American Taliban.

When you look for "people" to change it isn't the shepherd who will do the changing.  They always want to be in charge.  No.  The sheep need to change.  Actually the sheep need to say "go fuck yourself, Huckabee, we don't care about your fucking fairy tales.

The handful of muslims who have reached that point are either a) in the west or b) in hiding in their own countries.



Atheist Bloggers Bangladesh

[Iroscato]

From what I can see, ISIS is the real enemy and the one we should be focusing on. Freezing out the entire Muslim population because of their actions will do nothing except drive more people to their cause - more bodies for them to brainwash further into insanity and then throw at us.
Religion is indeed like a cancer and it has afflicted this species for far, far too long. But ISIS is currently on a different level to most of the rest.

I don't claim for a moment to have all the answers, or even any answers to how to deal with this, but if I've learned anything it's that people who do claim there is an easy solution are not thinking clearly and cannot be trusted.

Eventually, I believe they will be defeated, but it's not through destruction that we'll win, it's through construction. Outlasting them, outthinking them, being the better walk of life that we always like to claim to be. Emotionally lashing out is exactly what they want, and I think it's exactly what we must deprive them of.

A conventional war will not win this fight, it will only lead to further chaos and mistrust between the peoples of the world. WW2 may have stopped the Nazis, but it came at a terrible cost that we are still feeling and paying for today. Insanity is often described as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results each time - I really hope I live to see the day where we as a species finally realise that bombing the fuck outta people only makes the survivors pissed off.

[KUSA]

I agree completely. It's not a good situation for us (and obviously not for them). But I still think taking them in would be the right thing to do, even if it ends up hurting us somehow. It's a sacrifice and a risk, but it's the right thing I think.

I am sure you mean well but answer me this. If one of them killed a loved one of yours would you still think it was the right thing to do?