Attack at Planned Parenthood Clinic

[SteelCurtain]

That's what I thought. Ok, I was just making sure you were being consistent because I have seen some people use bodily autonomy as a reason why abortion is fine but then say it shouldn't be allowed after a certain point. Which makes no sense, because bodily autonomy applies for all 9 months of pregnancy. So if a person believes it is ok to abort an unborn at 5 weeks, then aborting him/her at 9 months shouldn't be any different with the bodily autonomy argument.

You'll never hear me say abortion is fine. I don't like it, and I wouldn't choose one for any reason other than health of the fetus/baby or mother.

You will hear me say that it shouldn't be up to anyone else but the woman who is pregnant.

[Iroscato]

You'll never hear me say abortion is fine. I don't like it, and I wouldn't choose one for any reason other than health of the fetus/baby or mother.

You will hear me say that it shouldn't be up to anyone else but the woman who is pregnant.

I generally steer pretty clear of this debate, but this sums up my take on it as well.

[Longhorn]

Yeah, nobody is 'fine with abortions' and nobody goes around encouraging women to have them. Ideally it should be the last resort, primarily for medical emergencies, teen/child pregnancies and rape cases. Obviously any other means of contraception is preferable and no woman ever would opt for an abortion as a first choice.
This is why sex education is important, and definitely not the abstinence-only kind.

[robvalue]

Right. I would have serious concerns about anyone who said abortions were "great". They're a contingency plan, and having safe sex is far more important so that their need appears as rarely as possible.

[Whateverist]

Right. I would have serious concerns about anyone who said abortions were "great". They're a contingency plan, and having safe sex is far more important so that their need appears as rarely as possible.

I do have a place in my heart for dark humor and a genuine regret that there are so damned many of us.  It is bad for the health of the planet to restrict biodiversity down to ourselves, our food and other needs, and the pests we just can't get rid of.  I also find it aesthetically repellent.  

You know the Monty Python tune with the line "Every Sperm is Sacred"?  It may be that every human life is special considered in and of itself; but taken en masse we're far from it.  Individually we are remarkable but as a plague we are not.

With 7.3 billion human beings on the planet totaling 1.3 trillion pounds if they were all American humans. Thankfully the bio mass comes down to just a couple of billion under a trillion pounds using the global average human weight.  Either ways that is a hell of a lot of long pig.  Boring.

[Clueless Morgan]

The mother gets to decide what is in her womb.....

I would take this further and grant that everyone has the right to decide what happens to their body, which includes the rights of men to do what they want to their bodies, as well as all transgender people who elect to have surgery.

My rights to decide what happens with and to my body, though, end when my choice affects someone else's body against their will.

I certainly don't care what a woman does with her body, though at some point when her pregnancy is far enough along that the fetus is viable I do think there is an ethical dilemma.

And anti-choicers bank on that ethical dilemma when they force through legislation making it harder and harder for women to have abortions prior to fetal viability.  They close down clinics and implement ridiculous requirements for the remaining clinics to be licensed as ambulatory surgical centers and for physicians performing the procedures to have admitting privileges at hospitals as a way of making it difficult for women to get the procedure done before the fetus can survive outside the womb.  And once that magic line is crossed, they then demonize the woman for wanting to kill a baby that could survive if she would only just give birth to it.

United States Constitution
Amendment XIII

Section 1.

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

By telling women that by becoming pregnant they effective lose their right to make decisions about their own body, you are turning them into people under involuntary servitude to the baby growing inside them.  You are effectively turning them into slaves.

United States Constitution
Amendment XIV

Section 1.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Unborn fetuses are not legally considered citizens of the United States, so when you say that a pregnant woman loses the right to make decisions about her own body once pregnant in deference to the baby growing inside her, you are taking rights away from a recognized citizen and giving rights to a baby who is not a citizen, has no legal standing and who, for 24-28 of the 40 weeks we're talking about, cannot even independently survive (depending on the developmental maturity of the baby)

If you don't want to have an abortion, don't have one.

If you think it's wrong to abort a pregnancy, fine, nobody is stopping you from having that opinion.

But do not shame women for having to make an incredibly difficult decision.  Do not take away their choice about what happens to them.  Do not shackle them to the medical consequences of a pregnancy against their will.  Don't tell them it's only nine months and they can put it up for adoption once its born like it's easy to go to work with morning sickness and fatigue, like it's easy to be a single pregnant woman or a married mother who knows she can't afford another child, like it's easy to be reminded every day that you were raped.

Women have the right to decide what happens to their own bodies.

Everyone has the right to decide what happens to their own bodies.

I have the right to decide what happens to my body.

Do not take my rights away.

[vorlon13]

Um, not quite.

Tasmanian Devils spring to mind.

Never knew that.  Got any info suitable (in length) for the thread here?

Tasmanian Devils are extremely not diverse genetically.  Some years ago, a Tasmanian Devil with a specific oral cancer bit another Tasmanian Devil, and due to their genetic similarity, the bitten Tasmanian Devil's immune system did not attack the biters transferred cancer cells, which unfortunately, 'infected' (colonized?) the second Devil.

Turns out Tasmanian Devils frequently bite each other, and within some years, virtually all of them have the first ones oral cancer running rampant.

It would be like twin brothers, one having cancer and their sharing a toothbrush, and the second one unfortunately winds up incubating the first ones cancer cells.

Kind of a freaky deal, but damn, cancer is just such a wretched fucking disease.

[rexbeccarox]

Never knew that.  Got any info suitable (in length) for the thread here?

Tasmanian Devils are extremely not diverse genetically.  Some years ago, a Tasmanian Devil with a specific oral cancer bit another Tasmanian Devil, and due to their genetic similarity, the bitten Tasmanian Devil's immune system did not attack the biters transferred cancer cells, which unfortunately, 'infected' (colonized?) the second Devil.

Turns out Tasmanian Devils frequently bite each other, and within some years, virtually all of them have the first ones oral cancer running rampant.

It would be like twin brothers, one having cancer and their sharing a toothbrush, and the second one unfortunately winds up incubating the first ones cancer cells.

Kind of a freaky deal, but damn, cancer is just such a wretched fucking disease.

OT: When I was living in Oz, we went to a wildlife preserve where most of the animals roamed free. Luckily, I was really really stoned, or I'd have probably been terrified (SO much scary wildlife in Oz). The Taz' were fenced into their own areas individually because they don't like each other much and they probably would kill each other if they had to share living space. Asshole animals, and vile-looking to boot.

[Joods]

Never knew that.  Got any info suitable (in length) for the thread here?

Tasmanian Devils are extremely not diverse genetically.  Some years ago, a Tasmanian Devil with a specific oral cancer bit another Tasmanian Devil, and due to their genetic similarity, the bitten Tasmanian Devil's immune system did not attack the biters transferred cancer cells, which unfortunately, 'infected' (colonized?) the second Devil.

Turns out Tasmanian Devils frequently bite each other, and within some years, virtually all of them have the first ones oral cancer running rampant.

It would be like twin brothers, one having cancer and their sharing a toothbrush, and the second one unfortunately winds up incubating the first ones cancer cells.

Kind of a freaky deal, but damn, cancer is just such a wretched fucking disease.

So pretty much comparable to the AIDS epidemic from the 80's?

[dyresand]

Tasmanian Devils are extremely not diverse genetically.  Some years ago, a Tasmanian Devil with a specific oral cancer bit another Tasmanian Devil, and due to their genetic similarity, the bitten Tasmanian Devil's immune system did not attack the biters transferred cancer cells, which unfortunately, 'infected' (colonized?) the second Devil.

Turns out Tasmanian Devils frequently bite each other, and within some years, virtually all of them have the first ones oral cancer running rampant.

It would be like twin brothers, one having cancer and their sharing a toothbrush, and the second one unfortunately winds up incubating the first ones cancer cells.

Kind of a freaky deal, but damn, cancer is just such a wretched fucking disease.

So pretty much comparable to the AIDS epidemic from the 80's?

Pretty much yeah