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RE: Christian argued that everything must have a creator
November 30, 2015 at 6:59 pm
(This post was last modified: November 30, 2015 at 7:00 pm by Catholic_Lady.)
(November 30, 2015 at 6:44 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: (November 30, 2015 at 5:13 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Your argument doesn't really matter to us God believers because part of believing in God is believing that He is a super natural being who, unlike us, has always existed.
Yes.
We are all well aware that you are fine having unsupported, irrational, illogical, unevidenced beliefs.
Why it doesn't matter to you that your beliefs are such, is another matter.
Wishful thinking does seem to be the most probable reason.
I'm not sure why anyone is taking issue with my post. The OP asked if his own argument was a good one to make to his theist friend. My response was that no, the argument does not work because the very point of believing in God is to believe that He is a supernatural being who is not bound by the same laws of nature that we are. One of those laws being the fact that we all had a specific point in time when our existence began. The argument would only make sense if the particular god the person believed in was not supernatural... but if that was the case, he wouldn't be a god in the first place.
I'm not saying you all need to believe what I believe, only saying why the "who created God" argument will not work for a God believer. No need to get your panties in a bunch and throw out every insulting adjective you can think of.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Christian argued that everything must have a creator
November 30, 2015 at 7:13 pm
(This post was last modified: November 30, 2015 at 7:14 pm by Whateverist.)
Stop the presses. This just in:
Christian argued that everything must have a creator
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RE: Christian argued that everything must have a creator
November 30, 2015 at 7:13 pm
(This post was last modified: November 30, 2015 at 7:14 pm by robvalue.)
I thought of a better way to state my position about weird "gods" ordering me to dance around like a bitch, or else I'll be punished:
I don't negotiate with terrorists.
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RE: Christian argued that everything must have a creator
November 30, 2015 at 11:41 pm
(This post was last modified: December 1, 2015 at 12:06 am by jcvamp.)
(November 30, 2015 at 6:59 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I'm not sure why anyone is taking issue with my post. The OP asked if his own argument was a good one to make to his theist friend. My response was that no, the argument does not work because the very point of believing in God is to believe that He is a supernatural being who is not bound by the same laws of nature that we are. One of those laws being the fact that we all had a specific point in time when our existence began. The argument would only make sense if the particular god the person believed in was not supernatural... but if that was the case, he wouldn't be a god in the first place.
I appreciate your response. It's difficult to comment on the idea that the Christian god is external to the laws of the universe, and therefore isn't subject to them, because it's a level of reality that nobody can prove or disprove exists. In terms of deductive reasoning, it still doesn't make sense to argue that everything has a creator therefore there must be something that doesn't have a creator (which is what the guy was arguing), nor does it make sense to assume that said creator must be the Christian god. To logically come to the conclusion that a god of any kind created us, you'd have to first prove that a god exists. The fact that I had parents, and my parents had parents doesn't provide any proof that a god exists.
(November 30, 2015 at 6:42 pm)Quantum Wrote: No, but if there is a personal god which wields tese powers, it is very important to know what it is up to and what it thinks in order to try and avoid an eternity of unpleasant torment, just in case... We're starting to veer into the territory of Pascal's Wager here. My response to that is this. If the fate of my immortal soul is contingent on believing in a god, why wouldn't that god make his existence obvious? Why would he endow us with the ability to use logic, then punish us for using it, instead expecting us to rely on faith (the absence of logic)?
I wouldn't worship a god who thought it was okay for good people to burn for eternity for using their god given intelligence. I wouldn't even worship a god that thought it was okay for bad people to burn for eternity; an infinite punishment is disproportionate to a finite sin. If it's a choice between following the laws of the god of the Bible, who condones and even advocates as many atrocities as he does, in case he decides to give me a spanking, or following my own morality and trying to live the best life I can just because I think it's the right thing to do, I'd choose to follow my own morality.
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RE: Christian argued that everything must have a creator
December 1, 2015 at 12:46 am
Pascals wager should never be used by a theist because why they are fucked so many different way's it's not even silly.
You say believe in this god when there is tons of other god(s) who would send you to a place like hell.
Atheism is a non-prophet organization join today.
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RE: Christian argued that everything must have a creator
December 1, 2015 at 4:37 am
(This post was last modified: December 1, 2015 at 4:46 am by robvalue.)
So really, the arguments for why I should care (as in alter my life in any significant way) about whether there is a "God" amount to apparent threats it issues for non conformity.
In other words, it's a mugging. No one has done any better than that. (I respect you trying though Quantum! Ironic an atheist steps to the plate rather than a theist  ) The only other "argument" I've heard is that I should be thankful. Sure, thanks god. Terrific. Except this world is a shitstorm, so not so much.
Of course, from a scientific point of view, I'd be very interested in any new discoveries, including "gods". But that's very different from changing the way I live.
Some insane being pointing a "gonna hurt real bad later" gun at me while handing out orders is not someone I'm going to listen to. So shoot me. If he's that powerful, he can do what the hell he likes anyway. There's no reason to think it will stick to its word, and I'm not putting his wishes above the wellbeing of myself or other life on this planet. Just maybe, it's a test to see if I'll do a bunch of immoral and stupid shit if threatened. So I win?
If he's just "telling" me to do things I do anyway because I think they are good things to do, then there's no problem, and no need for him at all.
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RE: Christian argued that everything must have a creator
December 1, 2015 at 4:55 am
(November 30, 2015 at 7:13 pm)Whateverist the White Wrote: Stop the presses. This just in:
Christian argued that everything must have a creator
That's a physics law I'm pretty sure Mark. Here's the full version:
Everything must have a creator unless it itself is the creator, then the law doesn't apply
Gods of all denominations created this law so they can exist in the first place
This sounds like circular reasoning, of which Gods are exempt of course under universal law 14A bylaw 3C
Can't remember the rest ...it's in Latin...
No God, No fear.
Know God, Know fear.
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RE: Christian argued that everything must have a creator
December 1, 2015 at 5:44 am
I think it also says in the footnote "wanna argue further details? See that pyre over there?
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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RE: Christian argued that everything must have a creator
December 1, 2015 at 5:47 am
This stunningly dimwitted argument always puts me in mind of the girl who confronts her boyfriend with, 'I didn't find any hairs on your clothing last night, so you must be fucking a bald girl.'
Filling a gap in human knowledge by invoking God gets you nowhere. Do we know exactly how the universe instantiated? No. But the claim that an uncaused creator did it simply adds another step to our ignorance - it is just giving up on trying to find out the answer.
Boru
‘I can’t be having with this.’ - Esmeralda Weatherwax
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RE: Christian argued that everything must have a creator
December 1, 2015 at 6:36 am
(This post was last modified: December 1, 2015 at 6:36 am by Alex K.)
I'll be impressed when the first apologist properly explains to me what precisely they mean by causation and cause, and how it pertains to arguments about deities. They all throw that word around, appealing to some fuzzy everyday intuition, without a clue what it really means.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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