Existence of Israel is fulfillment of Biblical prophesies

[Violet]

If you want evidence that the Bible is true all you have to do is look at a map of the Middle East. There you will see a country called Israel, which has come back into existence after an absence of more than 1800 years.

And which would be obliterated by the numerous enemies surrounding it if other nations were to stop propping it up.

If you study the Bible you will find that God warned the Jews that if they sinned they would be scattered among the nations. This happened after they rejected Jesus as being the Messiah God had promised. But even while they were wanderers without a home of their own God still protected them from being destroyed or assimilated into the nations where they lived and enabled them to preserve their language and culture. He did this because he had also promised to regather them to their own land at the end of the age. This began to happen when the nation of Israel was established.

So the holocaust, in which jews were one of only 2 specifically targeted groups, didn't happen... amiright?

Because wholesale slaughter (genocidal in intent) of Jews hardly seems to be the work of a god trying to protect them.

Further, you will notice that the language of the greeks and their culture are hardly lost to us... and they didn't have 'God's sworn protection.

You can find out more of what the Bible says about their present return here:

http://www.arielm.org/dcs/pdf/mbs189m.pdf

And you would find that without foreign involvement... these 'children of God' would have not gotten this land in the first place, and would soon have it taken from them.

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Theophilus was clearly very well acquainted with the OT, but equally clearly had never even heard of jesus. Why not? Perhaps because jesus never actually existed- he was a literary device for re-telling the accumulated religious and moral sayings of the Hebrew people.

The bible is a collection of myths. Wake up and look at the facts.

Jesus a clever literary device... Not the strongest position to take I am afraid, I am a biased "oily one" though.
Don't associate me with the sensational Christian Zionist camp either.

What does the 'strength of the position' have to do with the factuality of it?

Who was associating you with Zionists?

[Zen Badger]

Israel was a self fulfilling prophecy, because their prophecy told them they would get back their "holy land" they worked to ensure that they did.

So, as with all the other so called proofs, no proof at all.

Next......

[Minimalist]

Israel was a self fulfilling prophecy, because their prophecy told them they would get back their "holy land" they worked to ensure that they did.

So, as with all the other so called proofs, no proof at all.

Next......

"Israel" was a backroom deal between Jewish bankers and the British government. It has nothing to do with any fucking god.

[Caecilian]

Theophilus was clearly very well acquainted with the OT, but equally clearly had never even heard of jesus. Why not? Perhaps because jesus never actually existed- he was a literary device for re-telling the accumulated religious and moral sayings of the Hebrew people.

The bible is a collection of myths. Wake up and look at the facts.

Jesus a clever literary device... Not the strongest position to take I am afraid, I am a biased "oily one" though.
Don't associate me with the sensational Christian Zionist camp either.

The use of stock figures as mouthpieces for religious/ spiritual teachings and prophecies is incredibly common. Its a way of giving weight and authenticity to what is being said.

For example, theres an entire genre of Ancient Egyptian literature called Sebayt, which translates roughly as 'ethical teachings'. Some prominent examples are The Maxims of Ptahhotep and The Instruction of Amenemope. Did Ptahhotep or Amenemope exist? It doesn't really matter. As they appear in the texts they are literary devices- mythical teachers who act as mouthpieces for wise sayings that would almost certainly be already familiar to the reader. Thats how the literary conventions of Sebayt worked.

A more recent example is the figure of Merlin. Mediaeval writers used 'Merlin' as a device for giving authenticity to their prophetic texts- thus for example the 'Prophecies of Merlin' found in Geoffery of Monmouth. Link here for anyone who is interested.

The ancient jews used similar devices- Moses, David and Elijah are all stock figures of the type that I've described. Their 'biographies' in the bible are riddled with anachronisms, and are incredibly formulaic. But thats just the point. They're mythical figures like Ptahhotep and Merlin, whose function it is to convey the values and wisdom of the jewish people to future generations. The anachronisms are irrelevant- they exist as figures for the time that the bible was written down- many centuries after their alleged existence. And the formulae are intentional- formulas gives power to myth.

And jesus? He's a similar sort of figure. At least thats what Thompson argues in The Messiah Myth. And I'm strongly inclined to agree.

Many of his putative sayings, and much of his 'biography', is clearly 'borrowed' from other sources, notably the 'biography' and teachings of Elijah. Theres no evidence outside of the bible for his existence. There is evidence that early christians either hadn't heard of him at all (e.g. Theophilus), or viewed him as a powerful spirit rather than as a god and/or person (e.g. the author of Revelations). So his being a literary device is at least plausible, especially in the context of the Ancient Near East, where such devices were common.

Or at least: its way more plausible than the theory that he actually existed. Now thats not the strongest position, I'm afraid. Not by a long way.

[theophilus]

thats really a funy idea..jewish people don't believe in jesus. But still they are getting rewarded? They killed jesus (if the rumor is true.) for god's sake

They aren't getting rewarded. Their rejection of Jesus is the reason their nation was destroyed. But there punishment isn't premanent.

Because wholesale slaughter (genocidal in intent) of Jews hardly seems to be the work of a god trying to protect them.

It was God who has kept the attempts at genocide from succeeding.

Further, you will notice that the language of the greeks and their culture are hardly lost to us... and they didn't have 'God's sworn protection.

But the Greeks have had a nation of their own. The Jews have been scattered among other nations where they were outsiders. Anyone in that position would face the temptation to become assimilated into the dominant culture to make life easier.

Israel was a self fulfilling prophecy, because their prophecy told them they would get back their "holy land" they worked to ensure that they did.

Most Jews in Israel are secular and don't believe in the prophecies so it isn't likely that they would try to do something just to fulfill those prophecies.

Some of the posts have pointed out that Israel has received help from other countries. That doesn't disprove the accuracy of the prophecies. God often carries out his work by using people.

[mo3taz3nbar]

@theophilus the presence of israel is the unfulfillment of this verses:
"You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus.He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High.The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end"
(luke 1:31-33)

[annatar]

@theophilus the presence of israel is the unfulfillment of this verses:
"You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus.He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High.The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end"
(luke 1:31-33)

Mate you have to be silent in that issue. Becouse quran specifically says jewish people are cursed by allah and look where they are or what they are doing(info for ignorants:they are trying to wipe out muslims.)

[Minimalist]

Their rejection of Jesus is the reason their nation was destroyed.

And all we have to do is look in xtian 'holy books' to get that interpretation. Man, is there nothing you won't believe?

I've got a bridge in Brooklyn that you may like to buy.

[mo3taz3nbar]

@theophilus the presence of israel is the unfulfillment of this verses:
"You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus.He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High.The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end"
(luke 1:31-33)

Mate you have to be silent in that issue. Becouse quran specifically says jewish people are cursed by allah and look where they are or what they are doing(info for ignorants:they are trying to wipe out muslims.)

we are talking about something else(prophecies) you have to start reading posts before you reply
if you are looking for endless debates am not looking for this but if you are looking for a conversation you have to start getting evidence for anything you claims so i would be able to answer you

[Eilonnwy]

You know what, Theophilus, I will agree with you that the existence of Israel is in accordance with the Bible, but not for the reasons you assert.

Despite the fact that religion is not to inform public policy, it often does. It behooved many Christian leaders to create an Israel to fulfill the prophecy they so believed in. Do I think Israel was created solely because some Christian leaders wanted to fulfill it? No. Do I think it had a part to play? Yes. This is also the reason that religious politicians today are firm supporters of Israel no matter what Israel does, because they believe that Israel must exist for their religious prophecy to be filled.

I'll show you what I mean. Below is a video clip of Sarah Palin. (I know, Sarah Palin, right?) But her statements are easy to pick apart and show what I mean.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgizfYZFPC8

When Sarah Palin is asked if she will run for President, Palin says "I cannot predict the future, blah blah blah"

When asked about the Israeli settlements she says, "Jews will be flocking their in the days, weeks, and months to come"

....Wait, Sister Sarah, I thought you just said you can't predict the future? Yet somehow you know what Jews will be doing when it comes to Israel?

Sarah Palin doesn't give a rats ass about the Palestinians that are being forced form their home, because all that matters is God and the Bible. Her public policy opinion on Israel is informed by the Bible on this one.

It's very popular to support Israel and Israel alone because of this. Meanwhile, Helen Thomas, a white house reporter, shows a sever lack of support for Israel and she must resign. Granted, what she said was harsh. At this day and age, it's unrealistic for the Jewish people to leave Israel, hence I support a two state resolution. But any lack of support for Israel, truly gets you burned at the stake politically.

For some reason Israel can do no wrong. For some reason the best political position is to fully support Israel. For some reason Israel is an international issue that even the most uneducated of Americans have expressed a strong supportive opinion.

This isn't God fulfilling a prophecy, it's people, driven by their desire to see the prophecy filled. I find it absolutely appalling that the lives of Jews and Palestinians are so carelessly thrown away in a decades old conflict because of what is said in an ancient contradictory book.

Am I supporter of Palestine over Israel? No. Palestinians and their suicide bombings have as much to blame for the ongoing conflict as do Israel and it's overuse military force (As shown on the recent flotilla controversy) and settlements that force Palestinians out. As I said, I'm for a two state resolution. I'm for peace.