Existence of Israel is fulfillment of Biblical prophesies

[Rev. Rye]

If you want evidence that the Bible is true all you have to do is look at a map of the Middle East. There you will see a country called Israel, which has come back into existence after an absence of more than 1800 years.

And it wasn't just poofed into existence by a supreme deity, but by actions of governments and people.

If you study the Bible you will find that God warned the Jews that if they sinned they would be scattered among the nations. This happened after they rejected Jesus as being the Messiah God had promised.

And I presume rebellion against the Romans had nothing to do with it? And that the term "Masada" is fundamentally meaningless?

But even while they were wanderers without a home of their own God still protected them from being destroyed or assimilated into the nations where they lived and enabled them to preserve their language and culture.

And I suppose the refusal of many Jews to assimilate into the western nations had nothing to do with their own actions, and that somehow, while he refused to let them be destroyed, he couldn't stop people from getting pretty damn close to doing so.

If you want to learn more details about the history of the Jews I recommend that you read God, Jews, and History by Max I. Dimont

Or, for a much less biased source, Raymond Scheindlin's "A Short History of the Jewish People"

[annatar]

@theophilus the presence of israel is the unfulfillment of this verses:
"You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus.He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High.The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end"
(luke 1:31-33)

Mate you have to be silent in that issue. Becouse quran specifically says jewish people are cursed by allah and look where they are or what they are doing(info for ignorants:they are trying to wipe out muslims.)

we are talking about something else(prophecies) you have to start reading posts before you reply
if you are looking for endless debates am not looking for this but if you are looking for a conversation you have to start getting evidence for anything you claims so i would be able to answer you

i know the real discussion but i just wanted to point your hypocrisy.You are telling christians that their prophecy is false yet you are unaware(or ignore) how your god's prophecy is failed. Unlike you i am indeed reading posts before I reply.

They aren't getting rewarded. Their rejection of Jesus is the reason their nation was destroyed. But there punishment isn't premanent.

still they are not believe in jesus. Yet their land has been given to them. So god punished them for not believing jesus. then he forgave them while their belief hasn't changed.Your god is really an unstable person my friend...

[remza]

The use of stock figures as mouthpieces for religious/ spiritual teachings and prophecies is incredibly common. Its a way of giving weight and authenticity to what is being said.

For example, theres an entire genre of Ancient Egyptian literature called Sebayt, which translates roughly as 'ethical teachings'. Some prominent examples are The Maxims of Ptahhotep and The Instruction of Amenemope. Did Ptahhotep or Amenemope exist? It doesn't really matter. As they appear in the texts they are literary devices- mythical teachers who act as mouthpieces for wise sayings that would almost certainly be already familiar to the reader. Thats how the literary conventions of Sebayt worked.

A more recent example is the figure of Merlin. Mediaeval writers used 'Merlin' as a device for giving authenticity to their prophetic texts- thus for example the 'Prophecies of Merlin' found in Geoffery of Monmouth. Link here for anyone who is interested.

The ancient jews used similar devices- Moses, David and Elijah are all stock figures of the type that I've described. Their 'biographies' in the bible are riddled with anachronisms, and are incredibly formulaic. But thats just the point. They're mythical figures like Ptahhotep and Merlin, whose function it is to convey the values and wisdom of the jewish people to future generations. The anachronisms are irrelevant- they exist as figures for the time that the bible was written down- many centuries after their alleged existence. And the formulae are intentional- formulas gives power to myth.

And jesus? He's a similar sort of figure. At least thats what Thompson argues in The Messiah Myth. And I'm strongly inclined to agree.

Many of his putative sayings, and much of his 'biography', is clearly 'borrowed' from other sources, notably the 'biography' and teachings of Elijah. Theres no evidence outside of the bible for his existence. There is evidence that early christians either hadn't heard of him at all (e.g. Theophilus), or viewed him as a powerful spirit rather than as a god and/or person (e.g. the author of Revelations). So his being a literary device is at least plausible, especially in the context of the Ancient Near East, where such devices were common.

Or at least: its way more plausible than the theory that he actually existed. Now thats not the strongest position, I'm afraid. Not by a long way.

You espouse a handy framework for not coming to terms with the historicity of any person you want from 'religious/spiritual teachings and prophecies', I give you that, and if it convinces you, well, fine. But in the case of Christ, more plausible in my opinion? No.

One thing I would say is that the New Testament isn't a bunch of 'ethical teachings' so it doesn't need a 'stock figure as a mouthpiece'. The gospels claim to be historical narrative about a person who lived, ate, drank, slept, wept, bled, died (and supposedly physically resurrected), in particular places at particular times.

An example of one event in this narrative is Peter's confession of Christ (Mark 8:27-29pp -- Matthew 16:13-16; Luke 9:18-20... use http://biblewebapp.com/study/ if you wish), which happens as follows:

Code:

Jesus and his disciples went on to the villages around Caesarea Philippi. On the way he asked them, ``Who do people say I am?''
They replied, ``Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets.''
``But what about you?'' he asked. ``Who do you say I am?''
Peter answered, ``You are the Christ.''

I find the point you make about Theophilus (not the poster here, or the guy in Luke 1:1-4 even) answered by this confession. If he was being laughed at for being an ``oily one/Christian'' he would have definitely held to the above confession, like Peter - equating Jesus with the Christ. So this would have been a basic assumption of his writing. Proving Jesus was the Christ wasn't the topic.

Also, what evidence do you have that early Christian's 'viewed him as a powerful spirit rather than as a god?'
Pliny (b. 63 AD) wrote a few letters ( http://www.amazon.co.uk/Letters-Pliny-Yo...0140441271 ), he too laughed at us ``oily ones'', but recognised that the Christians he had personal dealings with had a custom of meeting regularly ``to chant verses alternately amongst themselves in honour of Christ as if to a god.''

Think it possible that you may be mistaken.

[Autumnlicious]

---

If you want evidence that the Bible is true all you have to do is look at a map of the Middle East. There you will see a country called Israel, which has come back into existence after an absence of more than 1800 years.

If you study the Bible you will find that God warned the Jews that if they sinned they would be scattered among the nations. This happened after they rejected Jesus as being the Messiah God had promised. But even while they were wanderers without a home of their own God still protected them from being destroyed or assimilated into the nations where they lived and enabled them to preserve their language and culture. He did this because he had also promised to regather them to their own land at the end of the age. This began to happen when the nation of Israel was established.

You can find out more of what the Bible says about their present return here:

http://www.arielm.org/dcs/pdf/mbs189m.pdf

If you want to learn more details about the history of the Jews I recommend that you read God, Jews, and History by Max I. Dimont

---

It could be. Doesn't legitimize the rest of your bullshit though.

Bugger off you unthinking moron.

[mo3taz3nbar]

i know the real discussion but i just wanted to point your hypocrisy

calling each other names is not quite intelligent so calm down a little

You are telling christians that their prophecy is false yet you are unaware(or ignore) how your god's prophecy is failed.

again with the claims with no evidence quote me the verse that contains a prophecy about israel

[annatar]

i know the real discussion but i just wanted to point your hypocrisy

calling each other names is not quite intelligent so calm down a little

You are telling christians that their prophecy is false yet you are unaware(or ignore) how your god's prophecy is failed.

again with the claims with no evidence quote me the verse that contains a prophecy about israel

you are right you need evidence... but let me tell you this, asking verse about it, was a poor action. You can check and embarrass me if you are so confident. Becouse i am... And if I say it is written on quran then it is written on quran.

And they[jews] said, "Our hearts are wrapped." But, [in fact], Allah has cursed them for their disbelief, so little is it that they believe.
2:88.

Among the Jews are those who distort words from their [proper] usages and say, "We hear and disobey" and "Hear but be not heard" and "Ra'ina," twisting their tongues and defaming the religion. And if they had said [instead], "We hear and obey" and "Wait for us [to understand]," it would have been better for them and more suitable. But Allah has cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few.
O you who were given the Scripture, believe in what We have sent down [to Muhammad], confirming that which is with you, before We obliterate faces and turn them toward their backs or curse them as We cursed the sabbath-breakers. And ever is the decree of Allah accomplished.
4:46,47

And the Jews say, "The hand of Allah is chained." Chained are their hands, and cursed are they for what they say. Rather, both His hands are extended; He spends however He wills. And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. And We have cast among them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. Every time they kindled the fire of war [against you], Allah extinguished it. And they strive throughout the land [causing] corruption, and Allah does not like corrupters
5:64

"Every time they kindled the fire of war [against you], Allah extinguished it."
Really now??

and this one is a proof that both christians and muslims are believe in same shitty prophecy.

Cursed were those who disbelieved among the Children of Israel by the tongue of David and of Jesus, the son of Mary. That was because they disobeyed and [habitually] transgressed.
5:78

And you tell me if its not a hypocrisy then what is???(no offense mate..)
these are verses i founded with a little search. there are more in quran for sure.. You wanted evidence so you got it.

[Minimalist]

I'm still trying to get by the whole moon-being-broken-in-two thing. Seems like someone should have noticed THAT!

[annatar]

I'm still trying to get by the whole moon-being-broken-in-two thing. Seems like someone should have noticed THAT!

I answered that before you should check old posts.
I said god had some glue. its pretty clear to me.

[Jaysyn]

And which would be obliterated by the numerous enemies surrounding it if other nations were to stop propping it up.

Uh, no. Can you say 6 Day War & Air Force second only to the USA in training & equipment. Israel is bloodthirsty & their next serious aggressor will more than likely be nuked out of existence.

[Autumnlicious]

And which would be obliterated by the numerous enemies surrounding it if other nations were to stop propping it up.

Uh, no. Can you say 7 Day War & Air Force second only to the USA in training & equipment. Israel is bloodthirsty & their next serious aggressor will more than likely be nuked out of existence.

True, and judging by their relationship to the US, I'm fairly certain they like their rather mercenary assistance.

We give them money, they screw over their neighbors - seems fair to me, right?