For those who want proof of the exodus

[The Grand Nudger]

They....were......slaves.

[Heat]

That's not true. that is why I gave you the example of Homosexuality and the societal view on it.

50 years ago it was beyond immoral. Now pop culture says it is immoral to say Homosexuality is a sin and homosexuality is 'moral.' The 'morality' changed with pop culture. Man's morality is not an absolute. It is tied to whatever the culture will allow/condone. That is why God's righteousness/What the bible says about slavery is wrong to you. The culture change the bible/God did not.

The morality of homosexuality didn't change; society's perception of it changed. Consensual sexuality is never immoral by nature, whereas owning another human as property is and always has been.

This this this, one hundred percent I agree.

[KevinM1]

This is not true.

Your framing these acts through the lens of modern morality. from your current vantage point you can say A was never ok or b always was despite what the people who live in a society thought 50 years ago.

 We know this because 50 years ago their were laws on the book identifying homosexuality as being a criminal offense, therefore an immoral act in most states. where as now it is legal for gays to get married. Their was a paradigm shift in morality concerning homosexuality in this country.

If your going to be a self-righteous douche and claim the high ground while ignoring history, I'd like you to go ahead and list all of the other 'morally right' things society currently deems immoral/illegal. Where does underage sex, incest, and sex with animals rank in your version of 'always been moral?' What if all parties give their consent? After all you did say:

I think most of us don't care one way or another about incest.
Animals cannot give consent.

google 'donkey show' their more than one way to 'skin a donkey.' (Certain things you can't un-see/wasn't always a Christian) and yes the donkey was giving more than just consent.

Children can, but it wouldn't be considered informed consent since children really don't understand/grasp things (even when they think they do).  That's why we don't let them vote, make important financial decisions, etc.

says pop culture currently. What happens in 10 years when 100 studies come out that contradict your 'old way of thinking.' People like you have been conditioned to accept 'proof' in a given format without question. what if society decides to place 'proof' in that format so that generation has unfettered access to the next? where is morality then? won't the same arguments you use to defend incest or homosexuality be used to defend sex with children? what if the find a pedophile gene? will it be wrong to imprison someone who 'can't help what their genitals want?'

Regarding biblical slavery, your entire "It still happens today and you condone it!" show is merely a transparent way to equivocate.  If we condone slavery in the 21st century, then we have no right to criticize the slavery mentioned in the bible.  Except, we don't actively condone it.  It's a fact of life that, given how globalized capitalism works, individual people cannot do much about it because, as you say, our entire culture is built upon cheaply produced goods.  And we have no viable second option.

this is the 'afluenza" defense.. You are born so privileged you can't help but to live on the backs of slaves Oh, my.. Now I feel disgust and ashamed for you.

Ok, it would be one thing to say I don't know of any other way to live and if you are not Amish you'd be telling the truth.. But here's the problem sport: You are LIVING ON THE BACKS OF SLAVES And Rather Than Acknowledge It You Change Their Job Titles So You Can Pretend To Be Righteous!!! Rather than Tell the TRUTH and Accept your Role so We Can Demand High Profit companies like Nike to Take the 150.00 Profit they make off a single pair of shoes they sell us and double a slave's wage from 1.25 a day to 3.00...

How do you not understand by pretend to be 'moral' by denouncing all slavery and then ignore how slavery impacts your life for the better you are making things worse for modern slaves than what was going on 200 years ago to the 'black man?'

So, no, it's not that we accept (as in approve, morally support) slavery.  It's that we're not in a position to change it much.

So pretend it is not there, and crapping all over someone who not only admits their role in it, but demands you acknowledge your own role in modern slaver.. Is your ONLY Option?

This is no different than drinking or drugs or any other self destructive behavior outside of it having a major societal impact.. In that we must first collectively admit we have a problem before a solution can be found..

Your role your unwillingness to admit how much your life depends on modern slavery is the reason modern slaves have it worse than those who came before. think about it. We live better than kings ever did through out history. Even our poor working class have better access to food, medical, Mod cons, housing, protection from the elements and access to information. All of which is potentially available to modern slaves IF the self-righteous would simply own up to how their lives DEPEND on slavery.

You'll note, however, that there is a global push to improve working conditions and worker safety around the world.

lol you didn't read the Nike articles did you?
Their is only a push for top tier companies. Raw material manufactures and food production are living/working in conditions that slaves did hundreds of years ago, but have gotten worse with all the new chemical treatments that they are now exposed to that they would not have been 100's of years ago.

 The notion that one can beat their slave/employee is considered grossly immoral by most, and that's why we take issue with that particular portion of the bible.

NIKE Factory Supervisors up until the last few years did this very thing!!! IT Only Changed When People Acknowledged what Nike was doing. Which is not Happening outside the big brands! This would change if people like you woke the f' up and stopped pretending to be better than the bible.

Your fav brand of running shoe tells you a different story! The bible put limitations on beatings, your shoe company did not have limits outside those the one doing the beating decided to place on himself.

 

As you noted with laws regarding homosexuality, morality is subjective and changes over time.  And that's why we scoff at the idea of the bible being a font of objective morality.  Because objective clearly morality doesn't exist.  Morality is never static.  It's, instead, based on ideas of equity and fairness, and those are always fluid.

So, it really doesn't matter if ancient Jews felt that it was okay to beat slaves so long as they didn't die.  Generally speaking, we're beyond that in thought if not practice, and the practice is largely out of our control due to a variety of factors.

but again, Nike shows it is not out of your control if you accept responsibility!

Drich, a physiological reaction != giving consent.  A person being raped may experience an orgasm, but it doesn't mean that they actually consented/liked what was happening to them.  An animal will identify and go after what it considers to be a mate, especially if it was trained to do so.  That doesn't mean it has the ability to make higher functioning decisions.

Regarding children, it's not pop culture but a combination of psychology and physiology.  A child's brain isn't as developed as an adult's.  They also lack experience.  Combine the two, and no, they cannot give informed consent.

If there is a pedophile gene, then the way to deal with pedophiles will change, and likely involve gene therapy.  That kind of therapy may be proactive if the gene can be detected with a normal blood test.  I don't see how that is controversial.

Regarding the rest of your rant, you're a hypocrite.  What have you done to abolish modern day slavery?  You're certainly not living off-grid in a hippie commune.  And, like you said just a few posts ago, it's impossible to determine where everything you buy - all the nuts, bolts, and widgets - come from, so even if you buy only American, chances are part of the connective tissue of those items come from someplace else.

Moreover, you yourself just said it would take a collective effort.  Which I agree with.  Which also means that individuals working individually won't be able to change things.  Plus, we're talking about changing the entire economic structure of the West.  That's not something that can be done easily or in a timely manner, and attempting to do so will only result in more harm being done.

And how am I not acknowledging that I'm living on the back of slaves?  I acknowledged it in the very post you quoted.  But there's not much that I can do about it.  I'm not an investigative reporter.  I don't have access to these places.  I can't shine a light on them.  All I can do is vote with both my pen in the ballot box and with my wallet, which doesn't actually amount to much given that politicians on both sides of the aisle are largely bought and paid for, and like you said it's impossible to determine exactly where the totality of these goods come from.

Without bad press - which I am in no position to deliver - or international pressure - which is largely derived from bad press - nothing changes.  So I'm stuck.  Just like you.  That doesn't mean I like it, or, again, approve of it.  It's just that without a collective effort, nothing will change.

Want to try making a change?  Vote Bernie Sanders.  At least he acknowledges how unfair the economy is, which is the first step in actually addressing all of the issues tied to it.  You certainly won't get that from a GOP candidate.  Otherwise, you're just trying to equivocate between your bible claiming that slavery is moral, and the rest of us saying no, it's not, but acknowledging that short of living in a cave or commune, we're tied to the system.  Which is terrible.

---

What I find really funny is that you seem to think I'm some sort of rich, ivory tower liberal type.  I'm not.  I live in rural NH in a house.  I don't own much - my wheelchair, my accessible van, my computer, and various electronics (which I use to try to keep from going insane due to the crushing boredom and loneliness living with a permanent physical disability provides).  I own some books.  I'm certainly not swimming in cash.  Shit, I don't even own a suit.  I have one dress shirt and no ties.  I'm not poor, which I'm thankful for, but I'm not well off.  I certainly do have some privilege, due to being a white, straight male living in the US and in a certain socio-economic position, but I always acknowledge it. 

Indeed, I'm well aware that privilege manifests in different ways.  I'd do just about anything to have a 'normal' body, for instance.  To be able to actually visit others in their homes, to go to the bathroom on my own, to bathe, dress, and feed myself, to actually give hugs to the people I love, etc.  So, you're really barking up the wrong tree if you don't think I understand at least some difficulty in life.  Being a prisoner in your own body and having to endure all the surgeries and physical therapy to even get an inkling of physical ability, all while missing holidays, birthdays, important events, etc. puts what's really important into crystal clear focus.  Also note that since I can't walk, Nike certainly isn't my favorite brand of shoe.  I don't wear shoes.

So, having a vague notion of always having a chaperone hovering overhead, of pain, both physical and emotional, and of a frustrating lack of freedom makes me more sympathetic to their plight than most, likely even you.  So, please do us both a favor and quit with the crocodile tears.

I eagerly await you purposely mischaracterizing what I said in between insulting and/or dumb comments about my disability since that's your MO.

[Heat]

I can't believe the fucking kid is actually arguing in favor of slavery as when I originally posted that as an alternative option I was being sarcastic expecting him to have at least some sense of morality..

[KevinM1]

I can't believe the fucking kid is actually arguing in favor of slavery as when I originally posted that as an alternative option I was being sarcastic expecting him to have at least some sense of morality..

That's Drich's way.  Like I said, he's trying to conflate slavery with employment, while also saying that we're hypocrites for both criticizing the bible for its slavery content and generally denouncing slavery in general even though the West was largely built on slavery.  So, since we're not living in a cave or leading a revolution, we're bad people who have no intellectual or moral ground to stand on regarding slavery.

Which is complete bullshit, of course.  It's becoming incredibly clear that the end result of a capitalistic republic is oligarchy, and short of revolution (either peaceful, through ideas and new government, or violent), it's not going to change, especially when the powers that be keep embroiling us in conflict after conflict which keep us weary.

Sorry, I can't topple the oligarchy.  And I shouldn't be held in contempt because I can't.

[dyresand]

Ahem citation please.. because you know slaves were beaten killed and even  raped etc. 
Slaves are not treated like human beings they are treated less than human.

go back and re read what I have already said I gave you examples!!! I also posted an article where Nike still employs slaves, they just treat them marginally better than every other slave shop in those regions and people are lining up to get jobs there!!!

That's not even evidence...

[Heat]

Let's just address something:

What makes you think that because slavery exists we must be actively against it, or as a result are condoning it?
Just because murder can help kill drug overlords, and other murderers, does that mean I condone all murder?

You go against every good Christian moral value you claim to stand for, you are a hypocrite living under a facade that your beliefs are rational, you fail to reconcile any of the immorality in the bible and when the problem is identified in the bible you don't change your agreement on whether or not that section of the bible is moral, you change your stance on the subject to agree with the bible's concept of morality. You are simply and utterly unable to think for yourself. You have openly condoned slavery not because slavery is bad, but apparently simply because it exists, and it is that irrational thinking alone that made everyone instantly want to say you can sincerely go fuck yourself.

I would respond to all you said, but you don't deserve my time.

To quote whoever it was on this forum that said it:
"If you want us to respect your beliefs, go get some fucking respectable beliefs!"

[Ravenshire]

Again, Not all slaves were treated badly I gave examples from the bible and modern times. Why don't you try addressing the points I made rather than speaking about the stereotype your comfortable with?

Also the fact that I'm giving you points about slavery you are not familiar with should indicate to you that I have indeed 'done my research.' your turn.

(bolding is mine)

Bullshit, Drippy. Owning a another person is treating them badly. I don't care how kindly a master is, if he owns someone else as property he is treating them badly.

And please, don't try to equate parenting with owning another human being. It's not just an argument of semantics as you implied in an earlier post. Though I can see how you can miss the distinction since you can't figure out the proper uses of their, there and they're either.

[Minimalist]

I can't believe the fucking kid is actually arguing in favor of slavery as when I originally posted that as an alternative option I was being sarcastic expecting him to have at least some sense of morality..

Ah.  That was your first mistake.  Dripshit is a bible thumper.  No useful morality in that pile of shit.

[Heat]

I can't believe the fucking kid is actually arguing in favor of slavery as when I originally posted that as an alternative option I was being sarcastic expecting him to have at least some sense of morality..

Ah.  That was your first mistake.  Dripshit is a bible thumper.  No useful morality in that pile of shit.

I had seen him on the forums and thought he was an established member of some sort, saw someone refer to him as a christian to speak with about learning his beliefs, now I understand the broader picture; he's a fucking moron.