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infinite reasons made me not to believe islam
#21
RE: infinite reasons made me not to believe islam
Quote:they didn't believe muhammed right? but how could sealing their eyes and ears help? verses are clear it says allah sealed their eyes and ears. Why he did that? I am asking this to you why?
you know what never mind... you wont understand anyway.. Its just a waste of time..
you want to know why their eyes and ears are sealed thats because they dont want to hear and dont want to understand their intentions are bad and whatever they see they will not believe because they was arrogant and preferring their personal benefits than any other thing.if you want to know that those people was able to choose see the ones who was fighting muhammed(pbuh) and later they become muslims they have done a lot of bad things that anyone could say these people must go to hell and god will never forgive them but later some of them repented and believed for example:
the son of abo gahl who was one of the enemies of muhammed(pbuh) after years of fighting muslims he came at last asking to hear the Quran and then he became a very good muslim.another example is abu sufian who was the leader of the pagans army later he became muslim did you think if god sealed their eyes and ears they will become muslims after all they have done? no its their bad intentions and their choice that made them dont see or understand but when this changed they became muslims and believed
Quote:But what if he DOES'NT repent? What if he does the harmless behaviour of not believing until after he's dead? Does your god still forgive him? Or does he insanely make him suffer in hell? It's not fair in the first place to punish people for thought crimes. Thoughts do no harm.
our life is temporary its just a test the first thing you must pass is believing in god.we will get to a point that i believe in. that you will probably make fun of but anyway i believe that every person have his own sign from god this sign could be a lot of different things if you hear something about islam god want you to hear it if you see something in the universe god is showing you how great he is so you believe in him.also everything you have in your life god made it like this for us.so after god give you all this you deny him thats not a small thing imagine that in one day after your mother stand beside you and you become a beautiful successful woman you denied that she is your mother and said that you dont even know her
Quote:Only actions can harm. Refusing to think certain thoughts, like prayers and worship, or lack of certain thoughts, like disbelief, are not bad. Why does your god need them? Does he have bad self esteem and needs people to reassure him 5 times a day that he is so great and wonderful?
believing in god is not just a thought its a thought that must be turned into actions.god doesnt need us and praying is not reassuring he is great the prayer is the way you connect with god and get away from the world you are living in for a little while
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#22
RE: infinite reasons made me not to believe islam
(July 4, 2010 at 4:20 am)mo3taz3nbar Wrote: our life is temporary its just a test the first thing you must pass is believing in god.
Then your god must be a very cruel bastard. Otherwise he would not have made any humans so flawed that any at all could fail this test, not at least if the penalty is that they will be kept alive after they die to be tortured forever. Why does your god not just let the failed ones stay dead? He could still reward the good ones who passed the test, but why cause unecessary misery to the failed ones? It's not their fault that your god designed them so that some would fail. Your god must not be a god of kindness and peace, or else he would at least not wake the dead to remind them how much of a failure they were and torture them forever as punishment. Why would your god be angry at them for not believing in something there is no way to perceive except as a concept in the mind? To punish people for that is cruel. It is also insane because there is no purpose to such a test. Why does he just not have the bad failures be born in the first place? Does he not know everything, even before it happens?

Quote:we will get to a point that i believe in. that you will probably make fun of but anyway i believe that every person have his own sign from god this sign could be a lot of different things if you hear something about islam god want you to hear it if you see something in the universe god is showing you how great he is so you believe in him.also everything you have in your life god made it like this for us.
Why does he need us to think nice thoughts about his greatness to him? Isn't it tribute enough just to enjoy this beautiful universe we live in? If your god really wanted people to believe in him as a separate creator of the universe (at least we know the universe is real, we see it, and touch it), then he could just zap that knowledge right into our brains. Belief has nothing to do with the morals of the person or how good they are or their actions, so what is your god judging here? Smartness (in seeing subtle metaphorical 'signs' of existence)? If so, then it's his fault for making some people stupid. Obedience? That just determines how much the person caves to pressure from others, not whether they are a good person. Goodness? Well, belief or disbelief has nothing to do with goodness.

Quote:so after god give you all this you deny him thats not a small thing
Is that a guilt trip? Even if I felt I owe it to him, how do you MAKE yourself believe in something that is not there? Is there something to see, hear, measure, touch, etc? You say the universe means there is a god (and that it's your god, not someone else's). I say the universe means there is a universe.

Hey there is a circular problem with what you say:

Your god gave me everything.
I owe him my belief.
But if I believe he gave me everything, I must have already believed beforehand.

If the problem is that I don't believe (yes, that is the problem here), then how can I believe he's responsible for giving me everything? How can I then feel I owe him anything? How do I know for sure that he gave me things needing that type of payment (belief in him) in return?

Quote:imagine that in one day after your mother stand beside you and you become a beautiful successful woman you denied that she is your mother and said that you dont even know her
What are you babbling about with mothers and success or whatever the fuck? Are you comparing the denial of something that is NOT there with the denial of a person that for sure IS there?

Quote:believing in god is not just a thought its a thought that must be turned into actions.
Belief is a thought. Actions are actions. Belief do not always go hand in hand with actions. Sometimes yes, but not always or by default, so unless your holy book specifically says that each time it mentions belief, then that is just you trying to make things fit where they don't.

Quote:god doesnt need us and praying is not reassuring he is great the prayer is the way you connect with god and get away from the world you are living in for a little while
If that was true, then your god wouldn't say how many times you must do it a day, when, and how (facing a certain direction, bowing and stuff). And why punish those who don't do it? Is it not punishment enough that they are missing out on some wonderful conversations with your god? Why punish them further with eternal torture?
I'm really shitty at giving kudos and rep. That's because I would be inconsistent in remembering to do them, and also I don't really want it to show if any favouritism is happening. Even worse would be inconsistencies causing false favouritisms to show. So, fuck it. Just assume that I've given you some good rep and a number of kudos, and everyone should be happy...
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#23
RE: infinite reasons made me not to believe islam
Quote:he would not have made any humans so flawed that any at all could fail this test, not at least if the penalty is that they will be kept alive after they die to be tortured forever.
he didnt made anyone flawed he made everyone with the ability to choose if you are not free to choose you are not going to hell
Quote:Why does your god not just let the failed ones stay dead? He could still reward the good ones who passed the test, but why cause unecessary misery to the failed ones? It's not their fault that your god designed them so that some would fail. Your god must not be a god of kindness and peace, or else he would at least not wake the dead to remind them how much of a failure they were and torture them forever as punishment. Why would your god be angry at them for not believing in something there is no way to perceive except as a concept in the mind? To punish people for that is cruel.
we are an eternal creatures so dont wait that when you are cruel to god that he will just make you disapear.he created you and he owns you you cant put the rules and also you are told what will happen if you make certain things so when you still choose to do it you are responsible for the results that you knew before.as an example if you kill someone you will go to jail for the rest of your life so if you go on and kill someone you will be responsible for what happened to you and not the ruler who put the law and also dont forget that if you choose the good thing you will go to paradise for eternity also
Quote:Why does he need us to think nice thoughts about his greatness to him? Isn't it tribute enough just to enjoy this beautiful universe we live in? If your god really wanted people to believe in him as a separate creator of the universe (at least we know the universe is real, we see it, and touch it), then he could just zap that knowledge right into our brains. Belief has nothing to do with the morals of the person or how good they are or their actions, so what is your god judging here? Smartness (in seeing subtle metaphorical 'signs' of existence)? If so, then it's his fault for making some people stupid. Obedience? That just determines how much the person caves to pressure from others, not whether they are a good person. Goodness? Well, belief or disbelief has nothing to do with goodness.
he wants us to believe and not need us to believe.if he just zap the knowledge into our brains we will be just like animals who dont have to make their own choice of beliefs and their will be no test for us and also no reason to be here.and again no one is stupid but some people choose to ignore signs and also choose to enjoy life(as they think) in the way they see is good regardless of the reasons we are here for and regardless of many other things
Quote:Is that a guilt trip? Even if I felt I owe it to him, how do you MAKE yourself believe in something that is not there? Is there something to see, hear, measure, touch, etc? You say the universe means there is a god (and that it's your god, not someone else's). I say the universe means there is a universe.

Hey there is a circular problem with what you say:

Your god gave me everything.
I owe him my belief.
But if I believe he gave me everything, I must have already believed beforehand.

If the problem is that I don't believe (yes, that is the problem here), then how can I believe he's responsible for giving me everything? How can I then feel I owe him anything? How do I know for sure that he gave me things needing that type of payment (belief in him) in return?
if you want to know anything about god you must assume that god exist or we will not get to an end to our conversation and this will get us back to wether god exist or not which i see if this is the main problem that make you dont believe you must concentrate in it as its hard to know wether god is merciful and justice or not when you think that there is no god
Quote:What are you babbling about with mothers and success or whatever the fuck? Are you comparing the denial of something that is NOT there with the denial of a person that for sure IS there?
if you dont want to believe you will never believe even if you see with your eyes you will always invent something exactly as saying that the universe was made by itself when if someone told you that your computer is made by itself you will never believe it but you chose to believe that all the things in the universe came by chance.
Quote:Belief is a thought. Actions are actions. Belief do not always go hand in hand with actions. Sometimes yes, but not always or by default, so unless your holy book specifically says that each time it mentions belief, then that is just you trying to make things fit where they don't.
am not trying to fit anything am just saying that if am sure that i will stand infront of god in the judgment day this will effect my actions.there is levels of believe the highest level is that all your actions is for god and is based on the day you will stand infront of god and there is another level which is just a thought that dont effect your actions and both will not be the same when standing in the judgment day
Quote:If that was true, then your god wouldn't say how many times you must do it a day, when, and how (facing a certain direction, bowing and stuff). And why punish those who don't do it? Is it not punishment enough that they are missing out on some wonderful conversations with your god? Why punish them further with eternal torture?
god tells you the good thing to do for your soul and for yourself he guides you to the good things that will make you happier in this life and after life but you still have to choose.thats why you find the people who converts to islam is more religious than many muslims who was born muslims thats because they are the ones who know the difference.
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#24
RE: infinite reasons made me not to believe islam
(July 5, 2010 at 7:43 am)mo3taz3nbar Wrote: he didnt made anyone flawed he made everyone with the ability to choose if you are not free to choose you are not going to hell
The ability to choose IS the flaw. The flaw means that there are guaranteed to be some people who fail the test. The flaw that your god made means those people will be given the horrible punishment your god says is deserved for having that flaw. To expect anyone to believe something based on other humans' say-so, without any real undeniable evidence, and then give them the worst possible punishment when they do the logical thing (not believe until there is proof), well that is one very cruel nasty horrible monster that would do that. Especially while telling them he loves them and that it's for their own good.

Quote:
Quote:Why does your god not just let the failed ones stay dead? He could still reward the good ones who passed the test, but why cause unecessary misery to the failed ones? It's not their fault that your god designed them so that some would fail. Your god must not be a god of kindness and peace, or else he would at least not wake the dead to remind them how much of a failure they were and torture them forever as punishment. Why would your god be angry at them for not believing in something there is no way to perceive except as a concept in the mind? To punish people for that is cruel.
we are an eternal creatures so dont wait that when you are cruel to god that he will just make you disapear.
Not believing in something is not cruel to the thing you don't believe in. Nonmuslims are not being cruel to allah, we simply don't believe he is real. We are not just pretending to disbelieve in order to make him angry, nor are we rebelling against him. How can we? We don't believe he is really there to be able to get angry or rebel against.

Quote:he created you and he owns you you cant put the rules
At least here you are admitting he is a dictator and you are a slave to his rules. You are there to follow orders and make him happy. Now, let us think, is he a nice dictator or a cruel one? Smile

Quote:also you are told what will happen if you make certain things so when you still choose to do it you are responsible for the results that you knew before.as an example if you kill someone you will go to jail for the rest of your life so if you go on and kill someone you will be responsible for what happened to you and not the ruler who put the law
With murder, we have solid evidence that the penalty is real. We can see pictures of jails, talk to people who have been there, and see the murderers get sentenced by a very real judge. In the case of hell, we only hear old stories that say it is real, there are no pictures, we know the body and its ability to feel pain/torment does not work after death, and no one has ever shown that any kind of judge exists. How can a merciful authority figure punish people for their disbelief under these circumstances?

But let us pretend that hell is real for a moment. In that case, maybe you will follow the rules because the penalty is so severe and scary. That makes sense now. But what if you disagree on what the penalty should be for breaking the rules? Sure, you will still follow them, it would be stupid not to, but will you make yourself believe that the penalty is just? For a crime of disobedience, let's say during 75 years of living, someone never prays unless people are watching. Maybe they are even angry at being told what to do, and they have an unlikable selfish personality. Does that really deserve an ETERNITY of TORTURE? Why is the punishment not people (and god) treating that person badly for the first 75 years of the afterlife? Would that not fit the crime a lot better?

Instead your god punishes forever. Since forever never stops, there is no afterwards, so no time where you are now a better person because you have learned from your punishment. Get it? There is no purpose to eternal punishment other than cruelty. Also, what kind of punishment? The very worst kind. Not very nice considering the crime of not praying causes no real harm to anyone, including god, unless maybe his sensitive ego gets wounded.

Quote:and also dont forget that if you choose the good thing you will go to paradise for eternity also
Well, now we're talking! Everyone has a price they can be bought for. I'm convinced of that. What is your god offering me in return for a lifetime (not sure how many years total yet) of obedience? Some rewards are well worth the advance price one paid. Remember I am female though, so I don't want any 72 virgin girls when I die. I don't want 72 virgin boys either. If I want sex, I will decide for myself who it is with, and how many there are, and also whether or not their virginity matters to me. Also, what if I myself am a virgin? Does that mean I must have sex for eternity with some guy that I am assigned to by your god? That is not very enticing. Let's pretend I did the right thing and had a husband during my life. Do I finally get to have sex with other men in the afterlife, or must I still have sex with only him? What is there to do in paradise? I like pleasure and happiness. What is there in paradise that will give me these? What is the social structure like? Are there any rules?

Quote:he wants us to believe and not need us to believe.
If it's not needed, then he should be proud of those of us who have figured out it is not needed, not punish us while rewarding the dumb ones who do it anyways just because they were told to. However, if his rules and the penalties he made are real, then it is his moral responsibility to ensure that every single person believes they are real before expecting everyone to follow them. That is why we should not have that particular flaw, the ability to disbelieve in things when there is no proof. Either that or he should have made sure there was proof of some sort that can not be discounted by anyone.

Hearing people tell you about it is not proof. Neither is a book of rules you are told by humans is holy, even if the book was carefully written without any contradictions that you can see. That does not mean a magic creator god must have written it. Also, your god would have to let people know which of the thousands of gods he is. Otherwise, how will they know he is not a hindu god or goddess? He will have to tell people 'the muslims were right'. So, even if a person believes that there must be some sort of god, there must be proof as to which one.

Quote:if he just zap the knowledge into our brains we will be just like animals who dont have to make their own choice of beliefs and their will be no test for us and also no reason to be here.
What is animal-like about being provided with essential information (the evidence of god's existence)? Is our reason to be here that we are test animals instead? And why does he need a test? Is the muslim god not all-knowing?

Belief is not a choice, except when a person tries hard to fool/convince themselves of something without a good reason to believe (that is called 'faith' by the way, believing without evidence). When there is a good reason, belief happens on its own. You never need to try and make it happen. If I see a damaged car and a streetlight bent over it where they touch, I instantly believe that the car and light are real, and also that a crash has occurred. I don't need to convince myself of it. True belief is never forced or even encouraged. Your god has given humans no cause for any true belief, so it is horribly unfair for him to punish people just because they don't believe.

Quote:and again no one is stupid but some people choose to ignore signs and also choose to enjoy life(as they think) in the way they see is good regardless of the reasons we are here for and regardless of many other things
That says a lot about the personality of any god who would punish a good person like that. That person enjoys things, that's a good trait because happy people spread that happiness to others. They are living in a way they see is good, and that's an excellent trait, one that will have a good effect on both himself and the people around him and those he influences too. He is being good even though you think there are reasons he should not live in a manner he thinks is good, well I'm on his side with that too. You say he is ignoring signs. What signs are there? I doubt he is ignoring anything that is real. Maybe he is ignoring the crazy interpretations by other humans that A does not mean A, but that A means A+god. Is that the kind of sign? There is no sign to ignore, not unless the god part of that equation actually can be seen in the sign.

Quote:if you want to know anything about god you must assume that god exist or we will not get to an end to our conversation and this will get us back to wether god exist or not which i see if this is the main problem that make you dont believe you must concentrate in it as its hard to know wether god is merciful and justice or not when you think that there is no god
I think you are dizzy from all that circular talk! You think I can't believe in god unless I first believe in god. Huh??? If anything, I must know about god BEFORE I can believe in him. How do I identify god? How do I know when I look at the world it somehow means the muslim god is real? What signs? Again, they better be good ones, ones that are undeniably a god, and the muslim one in particular.

Quote:if you dont want to believe you will never believe
That is not true. I don't want to believe that the BP oil spill is real, but I do believe it because there is a lot of evidence. Wanting does not change a belief unless you deceive yourself and talk yourself into believing something you think should be true and would be good if it were true. You will be sucessful in changing your beliefs, but that won't cause the belief to suddenly become true.

Quote:even if you see with your eyes you will always invent something exactly as saying that the universe was made by itself when if someone told you that your computer is made by itself you will never believe it but you chose to believe that all the things in the universe came by chance.
I never said the universe made itself. I don't know how it came about. I just know it's here right now. And what is by chance? Is that how your god was created, by chance? If you decide that the universe can't create itself, and if you decide that someone must have made it, then who made that creator? And who made that creator of the creator?

As for the computer, we know part of it`s making. Humans manipulated some already-existing parts of the universe (metals etc) into structures that perform computations.

Quote:there is levels of believe the highest level is that all your actions is for god and is based on the day you will stand infront of god and there is another level which is just a thought that dont effect your actions and both will not be the same when standing in the judgment day
The higher levels of belief would of course cause the believer to live every moment according to rules they believed in. So, I agree with that. Everything they do would be in fear and hope of what they are expecting on the judgement day they believe will happen to them after death.

Quote:god tells you the good thing to do for your soul and for yourself he guides you to the good things that will make you happier in this life and after life but you still have to choose.thats why you find the people who converts to islam is more religious than many muslims who was born muslims thats because they are the ones who know the difference.
They might be more religious because they are new at it and very enthusiastic. They also want to fit in to their new peer group and to do that they feel they must practice it as correctly as possible.
I'm really shitty at giving kudos and rep. That's because I would be inconsistent in remembering to do them, and also I don't really want it to show if any favouritism is happening. Even worse would be inconsistencies causing false favouritisms to show. So, fuck it. Just assume that I've given you some good rep and a number of kudos, and everyone should be happy...
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#25
RE: infinite reasons made me not to believe islam
That's a lot of typing to do for no effect whatsoever, Scented. I don't know why you still bother with him. You know that he will not really read what you've said. He will quote you, laugh, make a ridiculous statement of belief, and then move on to the next quote. What he has shown that he will not do is actually consider and/or try to counter a single argument about his beliefs. He is completely trapped within his belief that the Qur'an is 100% The Truth (according to his interpretation, of course), and literally cannot hear anything that contradicts that.

He has a very powerful mental shield in place... and that shield prevents him from actually using his brain to reason and think subjectively. It doesn't matter what you say to him, because he isn't really listening to you. The best we can hope for is that, one day, something will happen that will free his mind from it's retarded little cage and allow him to actually think again.
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#26
RE: infinite reasons made me not to believe islam
(July 5, 2010 at 10:37 am)Paul the Human Wrote: The best we can hope for is that, one day, something will happen that will free his mind from it's retarded little cage and allow him to actually think again.

Or, for the first time in his life! Dodgy
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#27
RE: infinite reasons made me not to believe islam
(July 5, 2010 at 10:37 am)Paul the Human Wrote: That's a lot of typing to do for no effect whatsoever, Scented. I don't know why you still bother with him. You know that he will not really read what you've said. He will quote you, laugh, make a ridiculous statement of belief, and then move on to the next quote. What he has shown that he will not do is actually consider and/or try to counter a single argument about his beliefs. He is completely trapped within his belief that the Qur'an is 100% The Truth (according to his interpretation, of course), and literally cannot hear anything that contradicts that.

He has a very powerful mental shield in place... and that shield prevents him from actually using his brain to reason and think subjectively. It doesn't matter what you say to him, because he isn't really listening to you. The best we can hope for is that, one day, something will happen that will free his mind from it's retarded little cage and allow him to actually think again.
You're right. There is no hope that this particular believer will understand one fucking word I wrote. I hope you are proven wrong, but I'm certainly not going to put faith in that. Just because I wish my time hadn't been wasted won't make it true.
(July 5, 2010 at 10:46 am)Darwinian Wrote:
(July 5, 2010 at 10:37 am)Paul the Human Wrote: The best we can hope for is that, one day, something will happen that will free his mind from it's retarded little cage and allow him to actually think again.
Or, for the first time in his life! Dodgy
That would be delightful to see. I hope it happens here on this forum. Smile
I'm really shitty at giving kudos and rep. That's because I would be inconsistent in remembering to do them, and also I don't really want it to show if any favouritism is happening. Even worse would be inconsistencies causing false favouritisms to show. So, fuck it. Just assume that I've given you some good rep and a number of kudos, and everyone should be happy...
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#28
RE: infinite reasons made me not to believe islam
(July 5, 2010 at 11:07 am)Scented Nectar Wrote: That would be delightful to see. I hope it happens here on this forum. Smile

That would be a true Damascene conversion. Until then, it's probably not worth bothering with him, just as it isn't worth discussing things with anyone who's that certain. A lot of what he says I find pretty difficult to understand anyway... perhaps he's speaking in tongues. Or does that only happen to nutty Bible bashers?
'We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.' H.L. Mencken

'False religion' is the ultimate tautology.

'It is just like man's vanity and impertinence to call an animal dumb because it is dumb to his dull perceptions.' Mark Twain

'I care not much for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it.' Abraham Lincoln
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#29
RE: infinite reasons made me not to believe islam
(July 5, 2010 at 11:31 am)The Omnissiunt One Wrote: That would be a true Damascene conversion. Until then, it's probably not worth bothering with him, just as it isn't worth discussing things with anyone who's that certain. A lot of what he says I find pretty difficult to understand anyway... perhaps he's speaking in tongues. Or does that only happen to nutty Bible bashers?
I usually understand him alright, but I'm not so sure he is understanding me at all. Smile
I'm really shitty at giving kudos and rep. That's because I would be inconsistent in remembering to do them, and also I don't really want it to show if any favouritism is happening. Even worse would be inconsistencies causing false favouritisms to show. So, fuck it. Just assume that I've given you some good rep and a number of kudos, and everyone should be happy...
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#30
RE: infinite reasons made me not to believe islam
you guys are rude lol but thats ok with me Smile
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