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infinite reasons made me not to believe islam
#31
RE: infinite reasons made me not to believe islam
Quote:To expect anyone to believe something based on other humans' say-so, without any real undeniable evidence, and then give them the worst possible punishment when they do the logical thing (not believe until there is proof)
it is not based on other humans saying something the messengers that god sent was given miracles that prove that what they are saying is from god. for us we are given a book that we have to examine to know wether its truth or not.if you are really searching for a proof and doing the logical thing you will find it as long as you are objective and putting an effort in doing this
Quote:Not believing in something is not cruel to the thing you don't believe in. Nonmuslims are not being cruel to allah, we simply don't believe he is real. We are not just pretending to disbelieve in order to make him angry, nor are we rebelling against him. How can we? We don't believe he is really there to be able to get angry or rebel against.
denying the existance of god doesnt come alone it comes with certain things inside you like being arrogant towards him
Quote:At least here you are admitting he is a dictator and you are a slave to his rules. You are there to follow orders and make him happy. Now, let us think, is he a nice dictator or a cruel one?
you are applying the rules we have on god which doesnt make sense as he is not like us and nothing is like him so you cant apply the rules that applies to humans to him
Quote:With murder, we have solid evidence that the penalty is real. We can see pictures of jails, talk to people who have been there, and see the murderers get sentenced by a very real judge. In the case of hell, we only hear old stories that say it is real, there are no pictures, we know the body and its ability to feel pain/torment does not work after death, and no one has ever shown that any kind of judge exists. How can a merciful authority figure punish people for their disbelief under these circumstances?
part of the test is to believe what you dont see or touch using logic and reason and understanding and if those things didnt make you believe nothing will and even after the life you will be acting the same as you was in this life and every proof you will see you will find a theory invented that you will follow or you will find an exit that will also lead to non believing(this is based on that you have personal reasons not to believe and not on that you are really searching with logic for an evidence)
Quote:But let us pretend that hell is real for a moment. In that case, maybe you will follow the rules because the penalty is so severe and scary. That makes sense now. But what if you disagree on what the penalty should be for breaking the rules? Sure, you will still follow them, it would be stupid not to, but will you make yourself believe that the penalty is just? For a crime of disobedience,
as long as i can choose anything is just because i knew the result before i did it.if i break the rules god tells us that he will forgive us but there is certain things that is really bad like denying god existance whatever you did in your whole life if you become a believer god will forgive you.dont talk about disobediance to god as its the same like being disobediant to the law of your country it is a lot bigger than this and god still forgives the most horrible mistakes that can be done
Quote:let's say during 75 years of living, someone never prays unless people are watching. Maybe they are even angry at being told what to do, and they have an unlikable selfish personality. Does that really deserve an ETERNITY of TORTURE? Why is the punishment not people (and god) treating that person badly for the first 75 years of the afterlife? Would that not fit the crime a lot better?
because he is not just bad in his life he chose to be bad and he will be like this all the time even if he had another chance.(if you want me to bring verses from the Quran to support what am saying i will do it)
Quote:Not very nice considering the crime of not praying causes no real harm to anyone, including god
ignoring prayers is like saying that god created me and gave me a lot of good things but i cant worship him because am lazy or i have a more important things its not a small thing as you think
Quote:Well, now we're talking! Everyone has a price they can be bought for
its not a price its a result of your deeds
Quote:I'm convinced of that. What is your god offering me in return for a lifetime (not sure how many years total yet) of obedience?
do you think that your believe and good deeds are prices? the good soul will enter paradise anything you do is for yourself not for anyone else
Quote:Some rewards are well worth the advance price one paid. Remember I am female though, so I don't want any 72 virgin girls when I die. I don't want 72 virgin boys either. If I want sex, I will decide for myself who it is with, and how many there are, and also whether or not their virginity matters to me. Also, what if I myself am a virgin? Does that mean I must have sex for eternity with some guy that I am assigned to by your god? That is not very enticing. Let's pretend I did the right thing and had a husband during my life. Do I finally get to have sex with other men in the afterlife, or must I still have sex with only him? What is there to do in paradise? I like pleasure and happiness. What is there in paradise that will give me these? What is the social structure like? Are there any rules?
you are messing everything up lol i will make it short in paradise you have whatever you want and more anything you could imagine you will find better than it
Quote:Hearing people tell you about it is not proof. Neither is a book of rules you are told by humans is holy, even if the book was carefully written without any contradictions that you can see. That does not mean a magic creator god must have written it. Also, your god would have to let people know which of the thousands of gods he is. Otherwise, how will they know he is not a hindu god or goddess? He will have to tell people 'the muslims were right'. So, even if a person believes that there must be some sort of god, there must be proof as to which one.
why you are talking like we cant defferintiate between the right thing and the wrong thing?there is a lot of proofs that god exist and i started a thread about this hope to see you objective Smile
Quote:That person enjoys things, that's a good trait because happy people spread that happiness to others. They are living in a way they see is good, and that's an excellent trait, one that will have a good effect on both himself and the people around him and those he influences too. He is being good even though you think there are reasons he should not live in a manner he thinks is good, well I'm on his side with that too.
sometimes there are things that are bad on the long term and its not clear for the people doing it that it may lead to a really bad things.if someone is enjoying life thats not a sin and there is no problem with that the problem is with forgetting about god who is the reason for anything he have
Quote:You think I can't believe in god unless I first believe in god
lol i mean that you cant ask is god merciful or not then in the middle of the conversation you say that i dont believe he gave me anything if you want to know what we say about god you must assume that he exist(even if you dont believe yet)`
Quote:then who made that creator? And who made that creator of the creator?
this question have no answer as nobody said that god is created.and you must admit that our knowledge has limits and there is things we will never understand
Quote:Everything they do would be in fear and hope of what they are expecting on the judgement day they believe will happen to them after death.
its not like that for some people start like that but i have never seen anyone that do the good things for hope and leave the bad thing for fear there is another feeling that i cant even describe that later takes place
Quote:They might be more religious because they are new at it and very enthusiastic. They also want to fit in to their new peer group and to do that they feel they must practice it as correctly as possible.
read their books they have a deeper look about things muslim do that many others do it and not appreciate it or love it like the new muslims
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#32
RE: infinite reasons made me not to believe islam
Mo, you are insane. I have answers to everything you wrote, but I'm not going to bother. I feel like going to other threads right now. Maybe tomorrow. Maybe not.
I'm really shitty at giving kudos and rep. That's because I would be inconsistent in remembering to do them, and also I don't really want it to show if any favouritism is happening. Even worse would be inconsistencies causing false favouritisms to show. So, fuck it. Just assume that I've given you some good rep and a number of kudos, and everyone should be happy...
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#33
RE: infinite reasons made me not to believe islam
(July 5, 2010 at 2:42 pm)mo3taz3nbar Wrote:
Quote:then who made that creator? And who made that creator of the creator?
this question have no answer as nobody said that god is created.and you must admit that our knowledge has limits and there is things we will never understand

But the universe must be created by god right? isn't that a logical fallacy?, i man theists says the universe is so complex it must be created, that god created it, but god that is omniscient, and omnipotent which is infinitely more complex always existed?
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#34
RE: infinite reasons made me not to believe islam
Quote:Please show some respect! and for all quotations of quran i use this website: http://quran.com/2

Umm sorry,can' to do that. My respect is earned,it is not an automatic entitlement and may not tbe demanded.

There are indeed many ideas in the Qur'an, The New Testament and The Torah which I respect. However,as entire books, each is the man made mythology of a religion. That does not earn my respect, merely my bemusement,amusement, and times my contempt.

Citing the Qur'an gains no credibility. For that to occur, I'll neede some evidence of a capacity for independent critical thought. So far in around 250 posts,there has been little such evidence,only repititious parroting of argument from authority. It's very tedious and rather irritating.
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#35
RE: infinite reasons made me not to believe islam
(July 5, 2010 at 2:42 pm)mo3taz3nbar Wrote:
Quote:To expect anyone to believe something based on other humans' say-so, without any real undeniable evidence, and then give them the worst possible punishment when they do the logical thing (not believe until there is proof)
it is not based on other humans saying something the messengers that god sent was given miracles that prove that what they are saying is from god. for us we are given a book that we have to examine to know wether its truth or not.if you are really searching for a proof and doing the logical thing you will find it as long as you are objective and putting an effort in doing this

You're assuming the claim is right and you're looking for a proof. You want it to be true, Moataz. We're evaluating each claim of the Qu'ran separately. And all of them fail the test of logic.

(July 5, 2010 at 2:42 pm)mo3taz3nbar Wrote:
Quote:Not believing in something is not cruel to the thing you don't believe in. Nonmuslims are not being cruel to allah, we simply don't believe he is real. We are not just pretending to disbelieve in order to make him angry, nor are we rebelling against him. How can we? We don't believe he is really there to be able to get angry or rebel against.
denying the existance of god doesnt come alone it comes with certain things inside you like being arrogant towards him

You don't believe in leprechauns, right ? Are you arrogant towards those little fellows ? You're not, because you can only be arrogant towards something that actually exist.

(July 5, 2010 at 2:42 pm)mo3taz3nbar Wrote:
Quote:At least here you are admitting he is a dictator and you are a slave to his rules. You are there to follow orders and make him happy. Now, let us think, is he a nice dictator or a cruel one?
you are applying the rules we have on god which doesnt make sense as he is not like us and nothing is like him so you cant apply the rules that applies to humans to him

He is the sole ruler of the world, we belong to him, we cannot argue with him or escape his decisions. Those attributes correspond to the concept of a super dictator/slave owner.
When the Qur'an apply the human concept of kindness to Allah it is ok, but when it's the concept of undisputable owner of humanity and sole ruler (or dictator) then you can't apply it. This is a double standard, a special pleading. Allah is an anthropomorphic god when you read the Qur'an, and the title of dictator who claims to be just and magnanimous (as all dictator do) defines him very well.

(July 5, 2010 at 2:42 pm)mo3taz3nbar Wrote:
Quote:With murder, we have solid evidence that the penalty is real. We can see pictures of jails, talk to people who have been there, and see the murderers get sentenced by a very real judge. In the case of hell, we only hear old stories that say it is real, there are no pictures, we know the body and its ability to feel pain/torment does not work after death, and no one has ever shown that any kind of judge exists. How can a merciful authority figure punish people for their disbelief under these circumstances?
part of the test is to believe what you dont see or touch using logic and reason and understanding and if those things didnt make you believe nothing will and even after the life you will be acting the same as you was in this life and every proof you will see you will find a theory invented that you will follow or you will find an exit that will also lead to non believing(this is based on that you have personal reasons not to believe and not on that you are really searching with logic for an evidence)

I think it's you who has personal reasons to believe which urge you to distort logic and reason to find your beloved predefined and assumed conclusion that god exist.

(July 5, 2010 at 2:42 pm)mo3taz3nbar Wrote:
Quote:But let us pretend that hell is real for a moment. In that case, maybe you will follow the rules because the penalty is so severe and scary. That makes sense now. But what if you disagree on what the penalty should be for breaking the rules? Sure, you will still follow them, it would be stupid not to, but will you make yourself believe that the penalty is just? For a crime of disobedience,
as long as i can choose anything is just because i knew the result before i did it.

Could you reformulate that so that it makes sense to me please ? Is that your answer to Scented Nectar's question ?

(July 5, 2010 at 2:42 pm)mo3taz3nbar Wrote: if i break the rules god tells us that he will forgive us but there is certain things that is really bad like denying god existance whatever you did in your whole life if you become a believer god will forgive you.dont talk about disobediance to god as its the same like being disobediant to the law of your country it is a lot bigger than this and god still forgives the most horrible mistakes that can be done

blah blah blah......irrelevant to the question.


(July 5, 2010 at 2:42 pm)mo3taz3nbar Wrote:
Quote:let's say during 75 years of living, someone never prays unless people are watching. Maybe they are even angry at being told what to do, and they have an unlikable selfish personality. Does that really deserve an ETERNITY of TORTURE? Why is the punishment not people (and god) treating that person badly for the first 75 years of the afterlife? Would that not fit the crime a lot better?
because he is not just bad in his life he chose to be bad and he will be like this all the time even if he had another chance.(if you want me to bring verses from the Quran to support what am saying i will do it)

You're not answering the question, you're trying to rationalize the demands and claims of the Qu'ran.
Make a personal answer.

(July 5, 2010 at 2:42 pm)mo3taz3nbar Wrote:
Quote:Not very nice considering the crime of not praying causes no real harm to anyone, including god
ignoring prayers is like saying that god created me and gave me a lot of good things but i cant worship him because am lazy or i have a more important things its not a small thing as you think

Laziness punished by eternal torture....amazing
Do you actually realize what you write ?


(July 5, 2010 at 2:42 pm)mo3taz3nbar Wrote:
Quote:Then who made that creator? And who made that creator of the creator?
this question have no answer as nobody said that god is created.and you must admit that our knowledge has limits and there is things we will never understand

and god works in mysterious ways....
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#36
RE: infinite reasons made me not to believe islam
Quote:You're assuming the claim is right and you're looking for a proof. You want it to be true, Moataz. We're evaluating each claim of the Qu'ran separately. And all of them fail the test of logic.
plz give me an example for this
Quote:He is the sole ruler of the world, we belong to him, we cannot argue with him or escape his decisions. Those attributes correspond to the concept of a super dictator/slave owner.
When the Qur'an apply the human concept of kindness to Allah it is ok, but when it's the concept of undisputable owner of humanity and sole ruler (or dictator) then you can't apply it. This is a double standard, a special pleading. Allah is an anthropomorphic god when you read the Qur'an, and the title of dictator who claims to be just and magnanimous (as all dictator do) defines him very well.
wether you agreed or not the rules god put will apply to you saying about god dictator is really wierd as he really owns everything you didnt create anything you have when we say about someone a dictator it means that he control things that he dont own or force things on humans without right but when talking about god its different he created us and he put the rules of the world and of everything i dont see anything unjustice or unfair if god created me he is the one to worship and its not something bad as you think its where you belong the bad thing is to worship someone who is human like you but in case of the creator its really different
Quote:Could you reformulate that so that it makes sense to me please ? Is that your answer to Scented Nectar's question ?
i mean that if i know what will happen after death how can i say that it is unjust when i have the ability to choose from the begining
Quote:You're not answering the question, you're trying to rationalize the demands and claims of the Qu'ran.
Make a personal answer.
am not rationalizing anything in some verses of the Quran when god talking about the non believers after their death they are doing the same things like lying and also god says that if they get back to earth they will do the same
Quote:Laziness punished by eternal torture....amazing
Do you actually realize what you write ?
i was saying that it is something bad nothing about eternal torture
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#37
RE: infinite reasons made me not to believe islam
(July 6, 2010 at 3:36 am)mo3taz3nbar Wrote:
Quote:Could you reformulate that so that it makes sense to me please ? Is that your answer to Scented Nectar's question ?
i mean that if i know what will happen after death how can i say that it is unjust when i have the ability to choose from the begining
I don't care about which choice you make. In fact, I even said somewhere that following your god's evil rules was the better decision if he were truly real because the penalty would be too great if you don't. What I asked about was whether you agree with the punishments your god assigns to the the behaviours he considers to be sins? Is an eternity of hell a just punishment for mild disobedience that causes no real harm to others, like not praying?

I want to know what YOU think about the punishments and whether they fit the crimes. If you are going to say something about how we can not questions god's rules because he knows better than us, than save your breath, because that's a cop out excuse. Or does your holy book tell you somewhere that you are not allowed to think about this? Do you feel scared at the thought of looking at your personal opinions of god's behaviour and his orders to you? You believe he can read your mind so I don't blame you if you are scared.
I'm really shitty at giving kudos and rep. That's because I would be inconsistent in remembering to do them, and also I don't really want it to show if any favouritism is happening. Even worse would be inconsistencies causing false favouritisms to show. So, fuck it. Just assume that I've given you some good rep and a number of kudos, and everyone should be happy...
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#38
RE: infinite reasons made me not to believe islam
http://video.msn.com/?mkt=en-au&brand=ni...ine&fg=aca

http://aca.ninemsn.com.au/

Not one of our best nightly Current affairs programs BUT popular.

This poor bloke Uthman Badar.....he has landed in a democracy and is trying to use said democracy to create a theocracy / dictatorship....perhaps he was being interviewed by a woman is what threw him off???

The two links above....are for the interview with Uthman and the backlash from the Aussie public.
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
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#39
RE: infinite reasons made me not to believe islam
Quote:What I asked about was whether you agree with the punishments your god assigns to the the behaviours he considers to be sins? Is an eternity of hell a just punishment for mild disobedience that causes no real harm to others, like not praying?
eternity for hell is the punishment of denying god existance or for worshiping anything rather than him like pagans or humans
about the punishments to behaviour god consider as a sin i except them as long as i can choose and i have the control over myself.
Quote:Do you feel scared at the thought of looking at your personal opinions of god's behaviour and his orders to you? You believe he can read your mind so I don't blame you if you are scared.
lol it doesnt work like this the problem here is that you are talking about god like he is someone like us.i dont see it like this god is the creator of everything he owns you and owns every little thing in this world and he chose us to be the once honored to decide wether to worship him or not and we belong to him. whatever the rules he put for us wether you like it or not it will apply to you
saying that the punishment is not fair means that you want to do the wrong thing and not being punished for it even if you knew the result before you do it which i really dont understand
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#40
RE: infinite reasons made me not to believe islam
(July 6, 2010 at 2:39 pm)mo3taz3nbar Wrote: saying that the punishment is not fair means that you want to do the wrong thing and not being punished for it even if you knew the result before you do it which i really dont understand

Even you must see that this is nuts! We are not doing the wrong thing at all. We are simply choosing not to believe the rubbish written in an ancient book that comes from the middle east.

To say that you don't understand why we would behave in a certain way even though we know what the outcome will be suggests that you think that we think everything you say is true and we choose to reject it.

We don't believe a word you are saying. It's NOT TRUE!! It's just a myth. Why would we base our lives on primitive tribal stories?

You really are the most deluded and blinkered member here.
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