The afterlife and the soul

[ApeNotKillApe]

The "program" needs a piece of machinery to receive and interpret the digital information, does it not?

IMHO functionalist proposals cannot be considered truly physical theories of consciousness. When mental properties are assumed to be realizable on multiple platforms, then they must be ontologically distinct from the matter on which they supervene.

And by what authority do you make your ontological claims about this ontological distinction?

[The Grand Nudger]

You take issue, do you Chad?  

You think that we've unreasonably sided with brains over ghosts.  You can dress it up however you like, but it will all reduce to this.

[Angrboda]

[Vincent]

I happen to agree with Chad in that you overstated the case from science.  Many things about our mental world have been explained by our coming to terms with the substance of the brain's operation, but genuine mysteries, such as consciousness, still exist.  Claiming that science has explained or evidenced all mental functions is just plain ignorance.

As far as I know, scientists are beginning to have a greater grasp on the concept of consciousness, and learning more about it every day. 

But that's beside the point. 

There are always going to be mysteries for science to uncover. But as I said before, virtually everything that ancient religions have attributed to being the soul's doing (your emotions come from your soul, your awareness comes from your soul, your ability to grow and develop comes from your soul, etc.) we can now attribute to the material brain. 

And even for those mysteries we do not yet have an answer to, filling in that gap with, "Must be the soul!" is fallacious reasoning. 

This is a rather weak induction. "Science has explained things in the past so it will do so again."  You don't know that, and your putting your eggs in that basket is another example of overstating your case.

When it comes to explaining the natural universe and it's workings, yes, I do put basically all of my trust into science. Why? Because what is my alternative? What other field proposes to give us a chance at accurately understanding the way the world operates? Religion? lol

[Sheed1980]

I think the most alluring thing about religion for many individuals is the promise of an afterlife. As an atheist, I don't believe that the afterlife exists. I don't think it's possible. And here's why. 

In order for there to be an afterlife, there has to be a soul. For the soul is what is carried on after death, correct? 

But is there even reason to believe that the soul exists? Think about it: The brain can be proven responsible for every aspect of you as a person: your personality, your actions, your beliefs, your desires, your emotions, your willpower, the love you have for other people, virtually everything originates and is carried out by your brain, as can be seen in the subject of psychology. Where does the soul even factor in to the equation? The brain explains everything without need for a soul. The soul, if it exists, serves no purpose, as everything we once attributed to it as primitive humans we have since found to be actions of brain functioning. 

So the problem is, if we know that the brain ceases functioning after we die, then what does the "soul" carry on with it to the afterlife (operating under the assumption that it's real)? What lives on after you die, is it really even you? What of you is left? Simply a life force, though your life force vanished with your last heartbeat? You had consciousness entirely because of your brain.

So with the brain gone, how would you even be aware to experience the tortures of hell or the blissful paradise of Heaven? Without a brain to process those feelings, you cannot actually feel them. Without a brain to remember and communicate with your loved ones, how can you meet them in heaven, how can you recognize them, how can you speak to them? Those are all abilities of a brain you no longer have. 

Theists: how do you make rational sense of these dilemmas? Is there some secret about the soul that I'm missing here?

What u have to consider is that Allah(God) created us out of nothing. What I mean by this is that with the big bang theory Someone had to start the big bang. So Allah decided how everything of our universe: galaxies, planets, stars, atmospheres were going to be formed from the big bang explosion. Then He simply said the word "Be" and everything came into being. I'm not saying all at once but into the process of particles becoming planets and stars etc. Then at a point in time after our Earth had been in existence for so long, as said in the Holy Qur'an, He sent His angels, messengers He created from light, to gather handfuls of earth. Black dirt, white dirt, red dirt, brown dirt and yellow dirt.(which is why we as humans come in all different colors) Then the angels mixed the dirt with water, the element that gives life, and made it a sticky clay. Then the clay was moulded into a statue which God brought to life as Adam(PBUH). So as u see since the Earth was created from absolutely nothing(big bang), and Adam(PBUH)was created from the earth, this verifies that we as mankind, like everything else Allah created, came from nothing. He created us all from nothing. So if Allah has the power to create us from ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, then after we die after having been SOMETHING, why couldn't He bring us back to life? Not to belittle Allah Almighty's power but It seems less of a miracle to bring something back to life that once existed, than to create life into existence from nothing at all. Also ur brain is not what gives life. Yes it is a very, very important factor to our living, but not the cause of life. Brain-dead people considered vegetables
still are alive until their souls are removed from their bodies. This world we live in now is temporary. We were all created for the afterlife. Eternally to reside in Paradise or Hell-fire, where life will be many, many times better or worse than we could possibly imagine. So as we are taught in the Qur'an, when u feel ur soul exiting ur body, it will be one of two ways. For a good believer(Muslim)angels with faces white as the sun come down to him from heaven with one of the shrouds of paradise and some of the perfume of paradise and sit away from him as far as the eye can see. Then the angel of death comes and sits at his head and says, ‘Good soul, come out to forgiveness and acceptance from Allah.’ It then comes out as a drop flows from a water-skin and he seizes it; and when he does so they do not leave it in his hand for an instant, but take it and place it in that shroud and that perfume, and from it there comes forth a fragrance like that of the sweetest musk found on the face of the earth. They then take it up and do not bring it past a company of angels without their asking, "Who is this good soul?’ to which they reply, ‘So and so, the son of so and so’, using the best names by which people called him on the earth. They then bring him to the lowest heaven and ask that the gate should be opened for him. This is done, and from every heaven its archangels escort him to the next heaven until it is brought to the seventh heaven, and Allah who is great and glorious says, ‘Record the book of my servant in Illiyyun and take him back to earth, for I created mankind from it, I shall return them into it, and from it I shall bring them forth another time.’ His soul is then restored to his body, two angels come to him, and making him sit up say to him, ‘ Who is our Lord’ He replies, ‘My Lord is Allah.’ They ask, ‘What is your religion?’ and he replies, ‘My religion is Islam.’ They ask, ‘Who is this man who was sent among you?’ and he replies, ‘He is Allah’s Messenger.’ They ask, ‘What is your [source of] knowledge?’ and he replies, ‘I have read Allah’s Book, believed in it and declared it to be true.’ Then one cries from heaven, ‘My servant has spoken the truth, so spread out carpets for him from paradise, and open a gate for him into paradise.’ Then some of its joy and its fragrance comes to him, his grave is made spacious for him as far as the eye can see, and a man with a beautiful face, beautiful garments and a sweet odor comes to him and says, ‘Rejoice in what pleases you for this is your day which you have been promised.’ He asks, ‘Who are you, for your face is perfectly beautiful and brings good?" He replies, ‘I am your good deeds.’ He then says, ‘My Lord, bring the last hour; my Lord, bring the last hour, so that I may return to my people and my property. For the disbeliever/wicked soul angels with black faces come down to him from heaven with hair-cloth and sit away from him as far as the eye can see. Then the angel of death comes and sits at his head and says, ‘Wicked soul, come out to displeasure from Allah.’ Then it becomes dissipated in his body, and he draws it out as a branch of thorns is pulled out from wet wool. He then seizes it, and when he does so they do not leave it in his hand for an instant, but put it in that hair-cloth and from it comes forth a stench like the most offensive corpse found on the face of the earth. They then take it up and do not bring it past a company of angels without their saying, ‘Who is this wicked soul?’ to which they reply, ‘So and so, the son of so and so’, using the worst names that he was called in the world. When he is brought to the lowest heaven request is made that the gate be opened for him, but it is not opened for him. (Allah’s Messenger (saws) then recited, ‘The gates of heaven will not be opened for them and they will not enter paradise until a camel can pass through the eye of a needle.’ Allah who is most Great and Glorious then says, ‘Record his book in Sijjin in the lowest earth,’ and his soul is thrown down. (He (saws) then recited, ‘He who assigns partners to Allah is as if he had fallen down from heaven and been snatched up by the birds, or made to fall by the wind in a place far distant.’ His soul is then restored to his body, two angels come to him, and making him sit up say to him, ‘Who is your Lord?’ He replies, ‘Alas, alas, I do not know.’ They ask, ‘What is your religion?’ He replies, ‘Alas, alas, I do not know.’ They ask ‘Who is this man who was sent among you?’ He replies, Alas, alas, I do not know.’ Then one cries out from heaven, ‘He has lied, so spread out carpets from hell for him, and open a gate for him into hell.’ Then some of its heat and hot air comes to him, his grave is made narrow for him so that his ribs are pressed together in it and a man with an ugly face, ugly garments and an offensive odor come to him and says, Be grieved with what displeases you, for this is your day which you have been promised.’ He asks ‘Who are you, for your face is most ugly and brings evil?’ He replies, ‘l am your wicked deeds.’ He then says, My Lord, do not bring the last hour.[/font][/size] [/i]

[The Grand Nudger]

How are brain dead peoples souls removed from their bodies?  Some sort of soul collectng device?  Does "allah" then...by chance, load those souls onto a DC 8 and crash them into a volcano?

[Neo-Scholastic]

While I think objections to substance dualism are overstated, I am not here advocating that position. Perhaps you missed this line from my previous post in this thread.

...the idea of a ectoplasmic-type soul, distinct from the body isn't an exclusively Christian idea nor is it even a necessary Christian doctrine. If living human beings are hylomorphic unions, then a soul without a body isn't a complete human, hence Christians can say that the dead 'sleep' until they are revived in new glorified bodies.

This was a reply specifically to Drich. My point to him was that Christianity as a religion isn't committed to substance dualism, although some Christians may be.

[robvalue]

How are brain dead peoples souls removed from their bodies?  Some sort of soul collectng device?  Does "allah" then...by chance, load those souls onto a DC 8 and crash them into a volcano?

Yes.

[drfuzzy]

I think the most alluring thing about religion for many individuals is the promise of an afterlife. As an atheist, I don't believe that the afterlife exists. I don't think it's possible. And here's why. 

In order for there to be an afterlife, there has to be a soul. For the soul is what is carried on after death, correct?

---

But is there even reason to believe that the soul exists? Think about it: The brain can be proven responsible for every aspect of you as a person: your personality, your actions, your beliefs, your desires, your emotions, your willpower, the love you have for other people, virtually everything originates and is carried out by your brain, as can be seen in the subject of psychology. Where does the soul even factor in to the equation? The brain explains everything without need for a soul. The soul, if it exists, serves no purpose, as everything we once attributed to it as primitive humans we have since found to be actions of brain functioning. 

So the problem is, if we know that the brain ceases functioning after we die, then what does the "soul" carry on with it to the afterlife (operating under the assumption that it's real)? What lives on after you die, is it really even you? What of you is left? Simply a life force, though your life force vanished with your last heartbeat? You had consciousness entirely because of your brain.

So with the brain gone, how would you even be aware to experience the tortures of hell or the blissful paradise of Heaven? Without a brain to process those feelings, you cannot actually feel them. Without a brain to remember and communicate with your loved ones, how can you meet them in heaven, how can you recognize them, how can you speak to them? Those are all abilities of a brain you no longer have. 

Theists: how do you make rational sense of these dilemmas? Is there some secret about the soul that I'm missing here?  

---

What u have to consider is that Allah(God) created us out of nothing.

---

 What I mean by this is that with the big bang theory Someone had to start the big bang. So Allah decided how everything of our universe: galaxies, planets, stars, atmospheres were going to be formed from the big bang explosion. Then He simply said the word "Be" and everything came into being. I'm not saying all at once but into the process of particles becoming planets and stars etc. Then at a point in time after our Earth had been in existence for so long, as said in the Holy Qur'an, He sent His angels, messengers He created from light, to gather handfuls of earth. Black dirt, white dirt, red dirt, brown dirt and yellow dirt.(which is why we as humans come in all different colors) Then the angels mixed the dirt with water, the element that gives life, and made it a sticky clay. Then the clay was moulded into a statue which God brought to life as Adam(PBUH). So as u see since the Earth was created from absolutely nothing(big bang), and Adam(PBUH)was created from the earth, this verifies that we as mankind, like everything else Allah created, came from nothing. He created us all from nothing. So if Allah has the power to create us from ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, then after we die after having been SOMETHING, why couldn't He bring us back to life? Not to belittle Allah Almighty's power but It seems less of a miracle to bring something back to life that once existed, than to create life into existence from nothing at all. Also ur brain is not what gives life. Yes it is a very, very important factor to our living, but not the cause of life. Brain-dead people considered vegetables
still are alive until their souls are removed from their bodies. This world we live in now is temporary. We were all created for the afterlife. Eternally to reside in Paradise or Hell-fire, where life will be many, many times better or worse than we could possibly imagine. So as we are taught in the Qur'an, when u feel ur soul exiting ur body, it will be one of two ways. For a good believer(Muslim)angels with faces white as the sun come down to him from heaven with one of the shrouds of paradise and some of the perfume of paradise and sit away from him as far as the eye can see. Then the angel of death comes and sits at his head and says, ‘Good soul, come out to forgiveness and acceptance from Allah.’ It then comes out as a drop flows from a water-skin and he seizes it; and when he does so they do not leave it in his hand for an instant, but take it and place it in that shroud and that perfume, and from it there comes forth a fragrance like that of the sweetest musk found on the face of the earth. They then take it up and do not bring it past a company of angels without their asking, "Who is this good soul?’ to which they reply, ‘So and so, the son of so and so’, using the best names by which people called him on the earth. They then bring him to the lowest heaven and ask that the gate should be opened for him. This is done, and from every heaven its archangels escort him to the next heaven until it is brought to the seventh heaven, and Allah who is great and glorious says, ‘Record the book of my servant in Illiyyun and take him back to earth, for I created mankind from it, I shall return them into it, and from it I shall bring them forth another time.’ His soul is then restored to his body, two angels come to him, and making him sit up say to him, ‘ Who is our Lord’ He replies, ‘My Lord is Allah.’ They ask, ‘What is your religion?’ and he replies, ‘My religion is Islam.’ They ask, ‘Who is this man who was sent among you?’ and he replies, ‘He is Allah’s Messenger.’ They ask, ‘What is your [source of] knowledge?’ and he replies, ‘I have read Allah’s Book, believed in it and declared it to be true.’ Then one cries from heaven, ‘My servant has spoken the truth, so spread out carpets for him from paradise, and open a gate for him into paradise.’ Then some of its joy and its fragrance comes to him, his grave is made spacious for him as far as the eye can see, and a man with a beautiful face, beautiful garments and a sweet odor comes to him and says, ‘Rejoice in what pleases you for this is your day which you have been promised.’ He asks, ‘Who are you, for your face is perfectly beautiful and brings good?" He replies, ‘I am your good deeds.’ He then says, ‘My Lord, bring the last hour; my Lord, bring the last hour, so that I may return to my people and my property. For the disbeliever/wicked soul angels with black faces come down to him from heaven with hair-cloth and sit away from him as far as the eye can see. Then the angel of death comes and sits at his head and says, ‘Wicked soul, come out to displeasure from Allah.’ Then it becomes dissipated in his body, and he draws it out as a branch of thorns is pulled out from wet wool. He then seizes it, and when he does so they do not leave it in his hand for an instant, but put it in that hair-cloth and from it comes forth a stench like the most offensive corpse found on the face of the earth. They then take it up and do not bring it past a company of angels without their saying, ‘Who is this wicked soul?’ to which they reply, ‘So and so, the son of so and so’, using the worst names that he was called in the world. When he is brought to the lowest heaven request is made that the gate be opened for him, but it is not opened for him. (Allah’s Messenger (saws) then recited, ‘The gates of heaven will not be opened for them and they will not enter paradise until a camel can pass through the eye of a needle.’ Allah who is most Great and Glorious then says, ‘Record his book in Sijjin in the lowest earth,’ and his soul is thrown down. (He (saws) then recited, ‘He who assigns partners to Allah is as if he had fallen down from heaven and been snatched up by the birds, or made to fall by the wind in a place far distant.’ His soul is then restored to his body, two angels come to him, and making him sit up say to him, ‘Who is your Lord?’ He replies, ‘Alas, alas, I do not know.’ They ask, ‘What is your religion?’ He replies, ‘Alas, alas, I do not know.’ They ask ‘Who is this man who was sent among you?’ He replies, Alas, alas, I do not know.’ Then one cries out from heaven, ‘He has lied, so spread out carpets from hell for him, and open a gate for him into hell.’ Then some of its heat and hot air comes to him, his grave is made narrow for him so that his ribs are pressed together in it and a man with an ugly face, ugly garments and an offensive odor come to him and says, Be grieved with what displeases you, for this is your day which you have been promised.’ He asks ‘Who are you, for your face is most ugly and brings evil?’ He replies, ‘l am your wicked deeds.’ He then says, My Lord, do not bring the last hour.[/font][/size] [/i]    

---

tl;dr
Allah doesn't exist.   Yahweh doesn't exist.  Neither does Jesus, Zeus, Mithra, Ahura-Mazda, Odin, Apollo, Osiris, Ra, Shiva, Rama, the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, or the Easter Bunny.

[MTL]

After death you will only exist in the memory of those who knew you, asking where you go after that is like asking where the music goes when the band stops playing.

very good analogy.