Open letter to Christians

[Nihilist Virus]

I realize the thread was not directed to me as an atheist but this is the first time we've met so I'm saying hello.  No, that won't do.  I've also got to say I like the cut of your jib.  That was a powerful first post, and certainly placed in the correct sub-forum.  

I am now going to go "rep" you as a token of my esteem.  I couldn't follow your rebuttal post where you went all chapter and verse on Godschild and Orangebox.  (Scripture makes me sleepy and sometimes a little nauseated.)  Some of the Christians we get here are always begging us to cite scripture.  Some of the atheists here are able to do so better than most Christians, Mr Agenda for one.  You obviously have the 'knowledge' too.

If it makes you feel any better I didn't make an introduction thread for the better part of a year when I first showed up.  Suit yourself, I always do.  Etiquette is always optional.

NV's not nearly as smart as you believe, NV like most atheist copies from the net.

GC

Firstly, if you're going to insult my intelligence, make sure that you use proper grammar. I'm already lumping you in with the "Your" an idiot crowd which, frankly, means that you are likely of insufficient mental capacity to achieve the enlightenment that I and the other ex-Christians here have achieved.

As for the topic at hand, I assume you're referring to the Zedekiah contradiction. If I have taken this from the Internet, and if the Bible, as you claim, does not contradict itself, then surely the Christian rebuttal is available. After all, you folks have had 3000 years to make sense of the Old Testament.

So why not just use your one good hand to copy and paste me the link?

You see, the problem is that this is a very obscure issue. While I was not the first human to discover it, I nevertheless did do so on my own while I was in the process of reading all 66 books of the Protestant Bible - something I seriously doubt you ever even considered. The lukewarm nature of your faith is likely the reason you believe I stole this from some other source.

The only rebuttals in existence for this issue merely offer clarification of which specific passages are in error so that the rest can be said to be in harmony.

So far you are more of a punching bag than a sparring partner. If you don't improve your skills then I might end up dulling my own in the process of grappling with you.

[drfuzzy]

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It is factual that the Bible contradicts itself.  These errors are either part of the original documents, or else are transcriber errors.  Since this is unknown, we assume in the favor of Christianity that these are transcriber errors.

It seems, then, that you believe two things: first, that a group of men who were doing all that they could to prevent the Bible from accumulating errors were unable to find assistance from God in this matter (John 14:13) and ultimately failed at their task; and second, that an ancient being who is described as clever at every opportunity and who is malicious to the gospel is somehow unable to at least match the blunders of the men who were doing their best to prevent errors from accumulating.  If God allows men to corrupt the Bible, but prevents Satan from doing so, then it is natural to believe that God is impeding Satan's free will to the point that Satan can only do what God wants him to do, which is to say that Satan acts on God's behalf.  If, on the other hand, God allows anything to happen to the Bible, and does not interfere, then you can be assured that the Bible says exactly what Satan wants it to say.

At the very least, we know we should treat the Bible like you would treat any document that is confirmed to contain both true and false claims: you have to meticulously comb over every claim and consult your own intellect to determine the truth value of each claim.  Because with contradictions, you lose the "because it's in the Bible" defense.  Why do you believe in the Flood?  Because it's in the Bible?  Well, contradictions are in the Bible, do you believe those are true, too?  Clearly not, so you cannot use "because it's in the Bible" as an answer for belief.  On some level you must use your own reasoning.  Does your own intellect tell you it is reasonable to believe in talking donkeys?

There is another issue you really ought to use your own intellect on.  It is regrettable and also somehow amusing to me, as a US citizen and former Christian, that the two documents I used to revere the most - the Bible and the Declaration of Independence - were written by racist, sexist, conquesting, genocidal, slave-driving rapists.  The Declaration of Independence, though, does not claim divine authority - or if it does, I think we tend to ignore that.  So why, when you understand that a group of ancient savages drafted a system of morality and a proposed method of atonement, do you believe that adherence to these principles is in any way reasonable?

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We only have to look at your stated religious view to know that you have no respect for anything, even yourself. I think this is all that needs to be said,

 except the Bible doesn't contradict itself.

 The Bible does say that God has limited Satan's power over man so we can use our free will.

GC

Remember that I gave the link to the Bibviz site to GC in another thread.  The Bibviz site holds an interactive database of every Bible verse.  It clearly demonstrates, citing each Bible verse and the surrounding passages, a total of 673 contradictions.   GC completely ignored the post, saying only that those contradictions had been disproven.  673 - - showing passages side-by-side - - all disproven, according to GC.  They can't possibly exist, you know.  Not even when verses from the Bible are what are being shown on the screen and compared.  So no, NV, you're not going to get anywhere.  GC doesn't exist in the same reality we do.    http://bibviz.com/

[Nihilist Virus]

We only have to look at your stated religious view to know that you have no respect for anything, even yourself. I think this is all that needs to be said,  The Bible does say that God has limited Satan's power over man so we can use our free will.

GC

Remember that I gave the link to the Bibviz site to GC in another thread.  The Bibviz site holds an interactive database of every Bible verse.  It clearly demonstrates, citing each Bible verse and the surrounding passages, a total of 673 contradictions.   GC completely ignored the post, saying only that those contradictions had been disproven.  673 - - showing passages side-by-side - - all disproven, according to GC.  They can't possibly exist, you know.  Not even when verses from the Bible are what are being shown on the screen and compared.  So no, NV, you're not going to get anywhere.  GC doesn't exist in the same reality we do.    http://bibviz.com/

Perhaps his "point" is that you looked this up instead of deriving it on your own.  That's what he accused me of, at least.  Funny thing is that he was wrong.  I was a Christian when I found this contradiction, so I wasn't actively looking things up.  I was reading the entire Bible cover to cover and in the books of the kings I was keeping a mental map of the timeline.  I made special note of the end of the era of Judah, having admiration for Josiah as being the last godly king.  Then reading the things that followed did not make chronological sense.  After over a decade, no one has been able to resolve the contradiction.

[Nihilist Virus]

We only have to look at your stated religious view to know that you have no respect for anything, even yourself. I think this is all that needs to be said,  The Bible does say that God has limited Satan's power over man so we can use our free will.

GC

Remember that I gave the link to the Bibviz site to GC in another thread.  The Bibviz site holds an interactive database of every Bible verse.  It clearly demonstrates, citing each Bible verse and the surrounding passages, a total of 673 contradictions.   GC completely ignored the post, saying only that those contradictions had been disproven.  673 - - showing passages side-by-side - - all disproven, according to GC.  They can't possibly exist, you know.  Not even when verses from the Bible are what are being shown on the screen and compared.  So no, NV, you're not going to get anywhere.  GC doesn't exist in the same reality we do.    http://bibviz.com/

LOL, did he use the injured hand excuse for you as well?

[Godscreated]

@ Fuzzy and NV, I'm more than able to spar with you, one handed at this time is a pain. Fuzzy I told you I've seen the stuff you put up plenty of times before, when my hand gets well we'll take them one at a time, at your choice. NV keep thinking I'm stupid it's more than fine with me, I also noticed you did not deny my claim about you copying, which you did, you brought nothing new to the table. 
Be patient children my hand will heal.

   GC

[drfuzzy]

@ Fuzzy and NV, I'm more than able to spar with you, one handed at this time is a pain. Fuzzy I told you I've seen the stuff you put up plenty of times before, when my hand gets well we'll take them one at a time, at your choice. NV keep thinking I'm stupid it's more than fine with me, I also noticed you did not deny my claim about you copying, which you did, you brought nothing new to the table. 
Be patient children my hand will heal.

   GC

673 bible verse comparisons will take you a long time, GC.  I was raised "Southren Babtist" (I assume your misspelling is a jab at the literacy and accent of most members) -> Pentecostal.  I have most of the bible memorized.  I've been told everything from "you're not reading it right" to "it's not a contradiction, god will explain it in heaven".  There are also the "mis-translations" and "it means something different in this context as it does in that one".  Others default to "it's not to be taken literally, you have to read it for spiritual insight".  So I really hope you have something new to bring to the table.  Maybe you can just get god to come with you and explain it.  God shouldn't need human help.  He created the universe, right?

I'm with robvalue: (to paraphrase in my own style) if somebody has to interpret (explain, and make excuses for) a book that god supposedly wrote to get his message to humankind - then god didn't do a very good job.  

There was a very good reason that the Catholic church would only hold services in Latin, and only let priests "interpret" the Bible readings for much of the church's history: control.  They fought interpretation of the Bible into the languages of the people, because they knew the people would start asking questions.  And then this turns into "it doesn't say what you think it says", and "I'll tell you what it says and you have to believe me".

[drfuzzy]

Remember that I gave the link to the Bibviz site to GC in another thread.  The Bibviz site holds an interactive database of every Bible verse.  It clearly demonstrates, citing each Bible verse and the surrounding passages, a total of 673 contradictions.   GC completely ignored the post, saying only that those contradictions had been disproven.  673 - - showing passages side-by-side - - all disproven, according to GC.  They can't possibly exist, you know.  Not even when verses from the Bible are what are being shown on the screen and compared.  So no, NV, you're not going to get anywhere.  GC doesn't exist in the same reality we do.    http://bibviz.com/

LOL, did he use the injured hand excuse for you as well?

Oh now, NV, cut the guy a little slack.  I do remember when he posted that he was going in for some surgery or procedure.  I don't think it's an excuse.
Hunting and pecking out letters on a keyboard is a bit slow with one hand.

Sorry for the delay.  I got an emergency call to play a Mass.   Left without logging out, and no data on my phone.  I've been tempted to upgrade, though.  Sitting up at the organ in the middle of a Catholic Mass, posting to AF - - now that might be fun.  

[Mystic]

I don't know how relevant this is. But when I left Islam I thought there were 24 issues with Quran that where highly problematic and were logical problems or many were even contradictions.

That said, I even wrote 28 Issues about it in a document where I shared on shiachat. People could not solve the issues. I had to solve them myself.

That said, I'm not sure if Bible contains unsolvable contradictions or not. I haven't thought about them that much.

Some of the solutions I came up with were so simple, so clear, it made me wonder why it took me five years to solve the issues.

For five years I disbelieved in religion, but I did believe in God.

My advice to you is that if you want to know if a religion is true:

Look at it's structural argument for the religion, what it is arguing...I think in Islam it's mostly by reality of the most exalted humans in particular and reality in humans in general, and everything relates to what role the exalted ones have with rest of humans, that God wants to establish through such humans.

And I look for the plan in the past, present, future with such perfect humans. I find the most eloquent manifestation of these humans to be the Quran.

This is one argument to look at it. I personally find a lot of what is stated of God's chosen ones in the bible to undermine their station.

That rituals of connection, purifying oneself, the rituals symbolizing journey to God, these are secondary, important, but secondary to the structure of the role of the most exalted humans have to do with humanity.

The Quran emphasized on the role of his chosen ones more then anything else, and showed his way with humanity through their trial.

If you want to go to details, like Hijaab or certain punishments, etc, that's relying a lot on subjectivity.

To me the same is true of studying any religion. You have to study it's over all structural argument. What's it's saying. What's argument to it bein true if it has one.

The Quran has chapters and chapters of emphasizing wisdom of God's way and his way in the past, now, and future.

[drfuzzy]

I have a huge problem with the concept of "chosen ones", Mystic.  Oh, I know where it came from - tribal warfare, tribal war gods, our tribe is special, and those "other" guys aren't people.  To say that a group is "chosen" - "we are gods' children" - opens the door to "and those other guys are NOT".  Those other guys can burn.  In some cases, we'll burn 'em FOR god - he would approve.  It's dangerous and divisive and sociopathic.

[Nihilist Virus]

LOL, did he use the injured hand excuse for you as well?

Oh now, NV, cut the guy a little slack.  I do remember when he posted that he was going in for some surgery or procedure.  I don't think it's an excuse.
Hunting and pecking out letters on a keyboard is a bit slow with one hand.

Sorry for the delay.  I got an emergency call to play a Mass.   Left without logging out, and no data on my phone.  I've been tempted to upgrade, though.  Sitting up at the organ in the middle of a Catholic Mass, posting to AF - - now that might be fun.  

LOL.

And thanks for vouching for him.  I guess the dog really did eat his homework.

---

I don't know how relevant this is. But when I left Islam I thought there were 24 issues with Quran that where highly problematic and were logical problems or many were even contradictions.

That said, I even wrote 28 Issues about it in a document where I shared on shiachat. People could not solve the issues. I had to solve them myself.

That said,  I'm not sure if Bible contains unsolvable contradictions or not. I haven't thought about them that much.

Some of the solutions I came up with were so simple, so clear, it made me wonder why it took me five years to solve the issues.

For five years I disbelieved in religion, but I did believe in God.

My advice to you is that if you want to know if a religion is true:

Look at it's structural argument for the religion, what it is arguing...I think in Islam it's mostly by reality of the most exalted humans in particular and reality in humans in general, and everything relates to what role the exalted ones have with rest of humans, that God wants to establish through such humans.

And I look for the plan in the past, present, future with such perfect humans. I find the most eloquent manifestation of these humans to be the Quran.

This is one argument to look at it. I personally find a lot of what is stated of God's chosen ones in the bible to undermine their station.

That rituals of connection, purifying oneself, the rituals symbolizing journey to God, these are secondary, important, but secondary to the structure of the role of the most exalted humans have to do with humanity.

The Quran emphasized on the role of his chosen ones more then anything else, and showed his way with humanity through their trial.

If you want to go to details, like Hijaab or certain punishments, etc, that's relying a lot on subjectivity.

To me the same is true of studying any religion. You have to study it's over all structural argument. What's it's saying. What's argument to it bein true if it has one.

The Quran has chapters and chapters of emphasizing wisdom of God's way and his way in the past, now, and future.

I would think that the Koran would do well to contradict itself, considering that it encourages pedophilia and spousal abuse.