pop morality

[robvalue]

Right

I was thinking about this.

Drich's morality is about abolishing the idea that being a good person is of any value? So basically, he's diametrically opposed to what most people would consider morality to be about?

[Silver]

You are entitled to your negative judgment in relation to Drich, but I prefer to look on the bright side of life and realize that Drich is an amazing person with insightful ideas.

[robvalue]

Luckily I have a video prepared for this exact situation.

http://youtu.be/zeRDR1Ytzn0

[Silver]

Nice video.

[athrock]

Can you explain what your answer to number 1 means? It doesn't seem to include anything about human wellbeing whatsoever.

It's Paul's unique flavor on Christianity, since Jesus seems to heavily to have favored humanist actions in order to get into heaven, such as the sell everything that you have and give it to the poor stuff. Of course, they deny that's what Jesus meant literally (which is odd, since everything else they like is literal except the parables, which are clearly parbles), because it violates the Paulianity Cult's ideas he so kindly outlined for us, above.

Catholics aren't the only ones who favor that Pauline theological explanation of salvation, but they're most apt to favor it. There are numerous old jokes, made before the clergy molestation scandals made it the easy target for Catholicism, about how Catholics like to torment themselves with their unworthiness. I've told it before, but it's my favorite atheist joke:

"An atheist dies and goes to Hell. Of course, he's very surprised by this! But there it is: the River Styx, and the opening of the great iron gates beneath the sign 'Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter Here'. Standing there, as the gates open, is Satan himself, all ten feet of glistening red demon-flesh, bat-wings, hooves, tail, and all. In a booming voice, Satan says 'Welcome, lost soul, to your eternity in Hell.' 

"Thrembling with fear, the atheist follows the massive bat-wing-covered back as Satan turns to lead him in. He can't really hear what Satan is saying, so overcome is he with shock and terror at finding himself in this situation. But after a few seconds, he starts to look around and notices that he's walking on lush grass. The sun is shining, the birds are singing, and all around him he sees people having a great time; they're laughing together around picnic baskets, they're riding roller coasters, they're engaging in orgies, and basically having the best time anyone can imagine.

"Satan finally stops droning on about Hell long enough to notice his new charge has fallen behind. He returns and tells the atheist, 'Oh man I'm sorry, I always forget to tell new people. All that stuff you heard about us from the other side? Total propaganda! They're just trying to win converts by scaring you while you're there on earth. Can you blame them? Great tactic; wish I'd thought of it. Don't worry, we're cool as can be, here. Anything you want, and I mean anything, all you have to do is ask!

"The atheist is greatly relieved by this, as you can imagine, and starts to listen as Satan continues the tour. But then it happens! They crest a hill and there it is, The Lake of Fire™, containing billions of souls in flaming agony, tearing their flesh from their own bodies as it burns, only to have it regrow again instantly, and wailing in self-pitying agony.

"The atheist recoils in horror, but Satan rushes to calm him: 'Dude! Don't worry. This is just for the Cathlics. *shrug* They insisted!!!"

Pretty good. Here's one of my favs:

A Protestant was marooned on an island all alone for several years. Finally, a ship appeared, and a rescue party came ashore. The captain of the ship was impressed by the survivor's ability to hold out alone all that time, and was curious about how he had managed to do so. Noticing that three huts had been erected, the captain asked what they were for.

"This first hut is where I live...I eat, sleep and work in here. The second one is where I go to worship God."

"But what about the third hut," the captain asked.

"Oh, that," the survivor snorted. "That is where I used to worship."

[Drich]

Wow, OK...

That's really not what I was expecting. Thanks for answering.

Can you explain what your answer to number 1 means? It doesn't seem to include anything about human wellbeing whatsoever.

Wow indeed I have been repeating this for 80+ pages and you just now got it (albeit unexpectedly)

It means what it says. It's a paradigm shift from ascribing a 'good or bad value' to works.

Let's say their is billion dollar prize for a race between NYC and London but you can't fly or use any type of water vessel, past or currently in use. the idea being to try and change how we travel.

Then let's say there are a group of really good swimmers who think the can make the journey and they set off, most of which never loose sight of Hudson bay. but a handful make it 3 days into a month long swim. then 1/2 of them make it 5, then one super good swimmer makes it 1/2 way.

Now if the goal was to create a new way to travel but these douche bag swimmers only look at bridging the gap, or rather just getting to London not using a current or past vehicle, did the people who couldn't make it out of the harbor do a good job, if the goal was to create a new way of travel? what about the guys who swam for 5 days? what about the guy who made it 1/2 way? No of course not! they all failed to meet the end goal of London and what's more important they failed to comprehend the true goal of the race to begin with!

You 'good' people are swimming in the Atlantic. Christianity is a transatlantic tunnel or transporter/the new way to bridge the transatlantic gap.

The basis of Christianity, Biblical Christianity is to seperate us from the law. Meaning the 'saved' are not judged by the law therefore our deed good or bad neither qualify or disqualify us from salvation.

Before I go on do you understand all of this?

[Drich]

OK, and the only reason I should care about this morality is that I'll be punished if I don't.

No. the only reason to care about redemption is to be with God.
For those who do not want to be with God their is an alternative.

I'll be interested to hear what this purpose of morality actually means, and whether it has anything to do with human wellbeing.

No other theists... No one else knows what the goal of their morality is?

Again not morality sport. Morality is works based. Under atonement We are save unto or for good works. we are not saved because of them.

[Drich]

Interesting, thanks

So... Drich is saying morality isn't about being a good person, it's just about following arbitrary rules a dictator has laid out? Is that right?

Wow that sounds likes a blast.

No, wait... he said morality is about abolishing works based thinking. So I succeed by going around doing the abolishing? What if there is none to abolish? Do I still win?

Ah, no.

It's not about following 'rules' at all.

God set a standard. A standard none can meet. Therefore the standard is not meant to be followed but to point to sin. Once you identify sin in your life you repent of it.

That is why morality is so dangerous. Because 'morality' is always based on the lessor of two evils.

For example God's standard says it is always wrong to steal and lie.

Morality says it is ok to steal and lie if the need is great enough.

Eg.. In a 'moral' world it was ok to steal from the Nazi's and lie to them about harboring jews. Therefore one does not repent of stealing or lying.

Again In God's standard to lie is to sin. to steal is a sin. In that situation as a Christian does it mean we can not steal and lie to the nazis to save the jews? absolutely we can! Why? Because again as a Christian we are not bound to the law (our deeds) to define our 'good bad status' as in a moral economy where our 'good bad status' is defined by our actions.

That said we need to be aware of our sin and repent of it. Christ will judge whether what we did was good or bad, that moral determination is not inherent or contained in the core value of our given actions.

[Drich]

OK, and the only reason I should care about this morality is that I'll be punished if I don't.

Is that about right?

I'll be interested to hear what this purpose of morality actually means, and whether it has anything to do with human wellbeing.

No other theists... No one else knows what the goal of their morality is?

The goal of this morality (according to Drich) is to demonstrate what stupid, dirty-birdie, demonic ass-faces humans actually are:
Gotcha! It's impossible to be "moral" or good enough. Humans are too gross to hang with God!

Only accepting Magic Jesus' gift can make us "righteous" in his Father's eyes. Accept it, and gain freedom from sweating any of this Morality crap. 

It matters NOT; The penalty's already been paid. The rules no longer apply once you're above The Law.

Of course, the OP suggests that Drich doesn't see how this mindset can and DOES pose the same danger to society as unchecked popular morality; Or that he simply doesn't care.

And why should Drich or his god give a shit about human well-being here on Earth, hmm? 
Heaven is forever and ever!

More or less..

But what you fail to understand is Biblical Christianity does not free one from Good works. Their is a Massive love component you are not accounting for. In order to be forgiven your sins you must also Forgive others. (it's even in the core of the Lord's prayer, and tied to several different parables Jesus Himself taught)
Once we have forgiven and been forgiven we are called to two simple Rules. Love God with all that we are, and love our neighbors as ourselves.

If we can not do these two simple things it shows that we are not in the state of grace needed to live 'above the law' as one of you put it.

It is under these two rules that we can know where we stand with God.

[robvalue]

Right.

Well, it's pretty clear your idea of morality has nothing in common with mine, or the general understanding that morality is concerned with human wellbeing.

I don't know why I'd be surprised. But continuing to argue as if they are the same thing is faulty. I have no interest in polishing god's nob. If he's gonna punish me for caring about people instead of following pointless rules, he can go right ahead. Your "morality" is of no consequence to me at all.