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...which, despite being science's greatest strength, for people who believe in magic and think that an invisible sky-daddy personally handed the human species an Ultimate Guide to the Universe™ via a tribe of desert warrior-goatherder people (after the universe existed for billions of years without us), offering Absolute Certainty Without Question™ so that you never have to deal with pesky facts from outside sources, is considered by them to be a weakness.
So much the worse for them. Fuck 'em if they can't accept their role as the modern comic relief they are.
(March 28, 2016 at 12:38 pm)Crossless1 Wrote: So much the worse for them. Fuck 'em if they can't accept their role as the modern comic relief they are.
It's not comic relief when they're attacking school standards, spreading deliberate propaganda, and convincing generations of Americans (and, increasingly, elsewhere) to reject skeptical thinking for magical thinking.
I just listened to a whole two-hour program on the radio (while driving to St. Louis, last week) in which they rambled on about the FFRF and how their "religious freedom" is under attack, because they can no longer use school buildings or functions to spread their religion. I almost picked up my cellphone and called to ask them if they'd ever heard of Matthew 6:5-7.
A Christian told me: if you were saved you cant lose your salvation. you're sealed with the Holy Ghost I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.
(March 28, 2016 at 4:48 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote:
(March 28, 2016 at 12:38 pm)Crossless1 Wrote: So much the worse for them. Fuck 'em if they can't accept their role as the modern comic relief they are.
It's not comic relief when they're attacking school standards, spreading deliberate propaganda, and convincing generations of Americans (and, increasingly, elsewhere) to reject skeptical thinking for magical thinking.
I just listened to a whole two-hour program on the radio (while driving to St. Louis, last week) in which they rambled on about the FFRF and how their "religious freedom" is under attack, because they can no longer use school buildings or functions to spread their religion. I almost picked up my cellphone and called to ask them if they'd ever heard of Matthew 6:5-7.
This is a classic example of why a little knowledge of scripture can be a dangerous thing because the NT also says:
Hebrews 10
And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
Now, Rocket, if Christians are encouraged by the author or Hebrews to "not giving up meeting together", where, exactly, do you recommend that they meet if they cannot use the buildings which their tax dollars were spent upon? Shouldn't all groups of citizens have equal access to these facilities?
(March 28, 2016 at 4:48 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: It's not comic relief when they're attacking school standards, spreading deliberate propaganda, and convincing generations of Americans (and, increasingly, elsewhere) to reject skeptical thinking for magical thinking.
I just listened to a whole two-hour program on the radio (while driving to St. Louis, last week) in which they rambled on about the FFRF and how their "religious freedom" is under attack, because they can no longer use school buildings or functions to spread their religion. I almost picked up my cellphone and called to ask them if they'd ever heard of Matthew 6:5-7.
This is a classic example of why a little knowledge of scripture can be a dangerous thing because the NT also says:
Hebrews 10
And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
Now, Rocket, if Christians are encouraged by the author or Hebrews to "not giving up meeting together", where, exactly, do you recommend that they meet if they cannot use the buildings which their tax dollars were spent upon? Shouldn't all groups of citizens have equal access to these facilities?
Sure. Schools should just open their doors to all groups that want to use "buildings their tax dollars were spent upon". The Muslims should be able to preach to your kids, then the Hindus, the Buddhists, the Satanists, the Wiccans, and we Atheists that you love so much. We should take the facilities meant for education and just use them for any group that wants them, who cares whether students need to use the gym, or the band room, or the labs.
(I'm being sarcastic if you can't tell.)
Oh, but you have no need to worry. There are church buildings on every corner in the US of A. And they're tax-exempt. Now, they're supposed to be taking care of the poor, but they're doing a horrible job of that. If we taxed the churches, we would have billions of dollars to feed the poor and care for the homeless, just like your Jeebus would want you to do.
"The family that prays together...is brainwashing their children."- Albert Einstein
March 28, 2016 at 11:36 pm (This post was last modified: March 28, 2016 at 11:37 pm by TheRocketSurgeon.)
(March 28, 2016 at 5:45 pm)athrock Wrote:
(March 28, 2016 at 4:48 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: It's not comic relief when they're attacking school standards, spreading deliberate propaganda, and convincing generations of Americans (and, increasingly, elsewhere) to reject skeptical thinking for magical thinking.
I just listened to a whole two-hour program on the radio (while driving to St. Louis, last week) in which they rambled on about the FFRF and how their "religious freedom" is under attack, because they can no longer use school buildings or functions to spread their religion. I almost picked up my cellphone and called to ask them if they'd ever heard of Matthew 6:5-7.
This is a classic example of why a little knowledge of scripture can be a dangerous thing because the NT also says:
Hebrews 10
And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
Now, Rocket, if Christians are encouraged by the author or Hebrews to "not giving up meeting together", where, exactly, do you recommend that they meet if they cannot use the buildings which their tax dollars were spent upon? Shouldn't all groups of citizens have equal access to these facilities?
No one, repeat NO ONE, is saying that Christians should cease to meet. But there's a huge difference between meeting to privately (or publicly) practice one's own faith and using the State to further one's religion. Being the only not-like-the-other-kids in a class full of Christians can be very intimidating to a child who just wants to follow the herd-- no one, especially not a teenager, likes to be singled out or left out, with such group activities.
As Dr.Fuzzy was kind enough to point out to you, Christians would be screaming bloody murder about separation of church and state if they weren't the predominant faith-group in this country. If the Muslims were all together in the school, praying to Mecca, and the teacher was leading the prayer, I doubt you'd feel the same way about it when your child came home to tell you that he was thinking about converting to Islam because all his friends were doing it.
Also, as she pointed out... you don't NEED to meet in the public places, to show your prayers to all who can see, which is why I referenced the "those who pray on the street corner for all to see" verses from Matthew 6. The only purpose of such meetings is to try to proselytize-- even in the radio show, they stated no less than twelve times (that I counted) that "this is a predominantly Christian town" as they lamented that they could no longer host prayers to Jesus at the school board meeting and at the graduation ceremony, or have circle-prayers led by the coaches, etc.
A Christian told me: if you were saved you cant lose your salvation. you're sealed with the Holy Ghost I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.
Not one of you in all of your pomp and back patting has addressed the single issue that religates your belief in science to faith. Why is that?
Are you not smart enough to comprehend the issue, or do you like so many christians who can not defend their beliefs simply rely on a circular argument to 'save' you?
I have posted several different examples of papers that both contradict the current theories of black holes and of the Higgs boson.
Now whether you believe in these findings or not is not the point, nor is it a matter of how popular your belief is. That fact is their is an accredited source that contradicts what you understand. Which makes your continued allegiance to the current theory a matter of faith. This is the same faith used in the belief of God. Why? because you (like all of science) can not personally affirm the current theories of black holes or the higgs boson are correct and the papers that describe alternative theories as being false. You just 'will' that what you know is indeed the complete truth. And when you find out it is not you just chock it up to the process of 'science.' (which makes your god infallible) But if you were to take the same measure of observation you use on the God of the bible and use it against your 'precious.' It would also fail, because again yours is a system of belief based in faith, because again the vast majority of what science claims you will never EVER be able to personally verify.
This fact separates Christians from you guys. In that a Christian can indeed know God fully in this life and the only faith needed is the faith required to simply A/S/K.
Now to the second 1/2 of the argument you all seem to be too dense to address, is how your blind 'faith in science' puts men in a position to buy/control your morality/how you think. If and when 'scientific discovery' is purchased and made to support a political movement or agenda, those who have blind faith in 'science' will do or believe whatever 'science' tells them to do or believe.
You can't tell me this isn't already happening, because we have modern day examples: Global ice age by 2000, hole in the ozone, global warming, Now global climate change because it got cold before (carbon tax could be implemented) Homosexuality is pre programmed genetically. All of these are just a handful of examples of how 'science' is used to manipulate how we buy, sell, what we think, where and how we live. It is used to control our morality and our minds.
Does the list of control look familiar??? These are the same charges many of you rail against the church with!!! These are the same points of societal control the church needed in the darkages to control the planet and punish anyone who speaks out against it. When the church splintered, control of the world through the church was lost. Yet here you all go making the same mistake over again by rallying this time under science rather than God.
Now if the same corrupt minds used the complete and honorable Qualities of God to create a oppressive power hungry world dominating monster found in the Dark ages church, how much more corrupt will this reincarnation of the 'blind faith church' be when you all unite under 'science' which supposedly kills God? (as per our discussion in this thread "Kills God= no source of absolute righteousness?")
Quote: Not one of you in all of your pomp and back patting has addressed the single issue that religates your belief in science to faith. Why is that?
We don't "believe" in science. We have data. No belief required. The data is correct whether you believe it or not - until the data is improved by more data. We do not have "faith". Faith is the act of saying that you know something that you don't know.
Are you not smart enough to comprehend the issue, or do you like so many christians who can not defend their beliefs simply rely on a circular argument to 'save' you?
I have posted several different examples of papers that both contradict the current theories of black holes and of the Higgs boson.
Now whether you believe in these findings or not is not the point, nor is it a matter of how popular your belief is. That fact is their is an accredited source that contradicts what you understand. Which makes your continued allegiance to the current theory a matter of faith. This is the same faith used in the belief of God. Why? because you (like all of science) can not personally affirm the current theories of black holes or the higgs boson are correct and the papers that describe alternative theories as being false. You just 'will' that what you know is indeed the complete truth. And when you find out it is not you just chock it up to the process of 'science.' (which makes your god infallible) But if you were to take the same measure of observation you use on the God of the bible and use it against your 'precious.' It would also fail, because again yours is a system of belief based in faith, because again the vast majority of what science claims you will never EVER be able to personally verify.
This fact separates Christians from you guys. In that a Christian can indeed know God fully in this life and the only faith needed is the faith required to simply A/S/K.
Now to the second 1/2 of the argument you all seem to be too dense to address, is how your blind 'faith in science' puts men in a position to buy/control your morality/how you think. If and when 'scientific discovery' is purchased and made to support a political movement or agenda, those who have blind faith in 'science' will do or believe whatever 'science' tells them to do or believe.
You can't tell me this isn't already happening, because we have modern day examples: Global ice age by 2000, hole in the ozone, global warming, Now global climate change because it got cold before (carbon tax could be implemented) Homosexuality is pre programmed genetically. All of these are just a handful of examples of how 'science' is used to manipulate how we buy, sell, what we think, where and how we live. It is used to control our morality and our minds.
Does the list of control look familiar??? These are the same charges many of you rail against the church with!!! These are the same points of societal control the church needed in the darkages to control the planet and punish anyone who speaks out against it. When the church splintered, control of the world through the church was lost. Yet here you all go making the same mistake over again by rallying this time under science rather than God.
Now if the same corrupt minds used the complete and honorable Qualities of God to create a oppressive power hungry world dominating monster found in the Dark ages church, how much more corrupt will this reincarnation of the 'blind faith church' be when you all unite under 'science' which supposedly kills God? (as per our discussion in this thread "Kills God= no source of absolute righteousness?")
Somebody else can address the rest of that idiotic drivel about your imaginary friend and science conspiracy fantasies.
"The family that prays together...is brainwashing their children."- Albert Einstein
(March 29, 2016 at 9:04 am)Drich Wrote: We don't "believe" in science. We have data. No belief required. The data is correct whether you believe it or not - until the data is improved by more data. We do not have "faith". Faith is the act of saying that you know something that you don't know.
Are you not smart enough to comprehend the issue, or do you like so many christians who can not defend their beliefs simply rely on a circular argument to 'save' you?
I have posted several different examples of papers that both contradict the current theories of black holes and of the Higgs boson.
Now whether you believe in these findings or not is not the point, nor is it a matter of how popular your belief is. That fact is their is an accredited source that contradicts what you understand. Which makes your continued allegiance to the current theory a matter of faith. This is the same faith used in the belief of God. Why? because you (like all of science) can not personally affirm the current theories of black holes or the higgs boson are correct and the papers that describe alternative theories as being false. You just 'will' that what you know is indeed the complete truth. And when you find out it is not you just chock it up to the process of 'science.' (which makes your god infallible) But if you were to take the same measure of observation you use on the God of the bible and use it against your 'precious.' It would also fail, because again yours is a system of belief based in faith, because again the vast majority of what science claims you will never EVER be able to personally verify.
This fact separates Christians from you guys. In that a Christian can indeed know God fully in this life and the only faith needed is the faith required to simply A/S/K.
Now to the second 1/2 of the argument you all seem to be too dense to address, is how your blind 'faith in science' puts men in a position to buy/control your morality/how you think. If and when 'scientific discovery' is purchased and made to support a political movement or agenda, those who have blind faith in 'science' will do or believe whatever 'science' tells them to do or believe.
You can't tell me this isn't already happening, because we have modern day examples: Global ice age by 2000, hole in the ozone, global warming, Now global climate change because it got cold before (carbon tax could be implemented) Homosexuality is pre programmed genetically. All of these are just a handful of examples of how 'science' is used to manipulate how we buy, sell, what we think, where and how we live. It is used to control our morality and our minds.
Does the list of control look familiar??? These are the same charges many of you rail against the church with!!! These are the same points of societal control the church needed in the darkages to control the planet and punish anyone who speaks out against it. When the church splintered, control of the world through the church was lost. Yet here you all go making the same mistake over again by rallying this time under science rather than God.
Now if the same corrupt minds used the complete and honorable Qualities of God to create a oppressive power hungry world dominating monster found in the Dark ages church, how much more corrupt will this reincarnation of the 'blind faith church' be when you all unite under 'science' which supposedly kills God? (as per our discussion in this thread "Kills God= no source of absolute righteousness?")
Somebody else can address the rest of that idiotic drivel about your imaginary friend and science conspiracy fantasies.
Do you not understand your involvement in this scientific discussion was apart of a larger 'science conspiracy' discussion from the beginning?
Seriously?!?! This whole thing started because one of you claimed 'science' is not a study on fiction. That everything is always 100% Fact grounded reality, while God is not.
Which the very idea outlines my 'faith in science' argument.
(March 29, 2016 at 9:23 am)drfuzzy Wrote: Somebody else can address the rest of that idiotic drivel about your imaginary friend and science conspiracy fantasies.
Do you not understand your involvement in this scientific discussion was apart of a larger 'science conspiracy' discussion from the beginning?
Seriously?!?! This whole thing started because one of you claimed 'science' is not a study on fiction. That everything is always 100% Fact grounded reality, while God is not.
Which the very idea outlines my 'faith in science' argument.
Everything in science is data. That's all it is. We have no data on god. No mathematical measurements, gravitational waves, no radio waves, no video, no audio, no nothing.
"The family that prays together...is brainwashing their children."- Albert Einstein
(March 28, 2016 at 5:45 pm)athrock Wrote: This is a classic example of why a little knowledge of scripture can be a dangerous thing because the NT also says:
Hebrews 10
And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
Now, Rocket, if Christians are encouraged by the author or Hebrews to "not giving up meeting together", where, exactly, do you recommend that they meet if they cannot use the buildings which their tax dollars were spent upon? Shouldn't all groups of citizens have equal access to these facilities?
Sure. Schools should just open their doors to all groups that want to use "buildings their tax dollars were spent upon". The Muslims should be able to preach to your kids, then the Hindus, the Buddhists, the Satanists, the Wiccans, and we Atheists that you love so much. We should take the facilities meant for education and just use them for any group that wants them, who cares whether students need to use the gym, or the band room, or the labs.
(I'm being sarcastic if you can't tell.)
Oh, but you have no need to worry. There are church buildings on every corner in the US of A. And they're tax-exempt. Now, they're supposed to be taking care of the poor, but they're doing a horrible job of that. If we taxed the churches, we would have billions of dollars to feed the poor and care for the homeless, just like your Jeebus would want you to do.
Who do the schools belong to if not the citizens who paid for them? So, yeah...equal access to the use of the facilities.
Which is a far cry from allowing Muslim or Christian groups to teach to children, of course. We're talking about weekends and evenings when the buildings are not being used. Picking up a few bucks in rent for the use of a building that is otherwise sitting idle seems like a pretty good use of the taxpayer's property.
Oh, one more point...I personally think that if the government wants to tax churches, it can and should do so. Churches don't make much of a profit, so I don't know how much revenue that would really generate for the US Treasury, but if it gives haters one less reason to whine, then I'm for it.
Of course, that ought to go for all non-profits equally including Planned Parenthood and Greenpeace among others.
