Still struggling.

[Simon Moon]

Mom made me go to church today. She texted my preacher and told him i was an atheist and he made some lesson about the reality of scripture. I was skeptical, he made lots of claims and his evidence was eyewitnesses. I thought about how witnesses on 9/11 said they saw no planes and It got rid of that doubt. They talked to me in the car about why i dont believe in prayer and they think im running away from god because i feel guilty of my sins. They are saying i will go to hell but fail to prove hells existance.

Overall its a good day, i can already tell i will never be able to get out of church. They wont let me leave

Do some reading on the history of how the Bible was actually written, and who actually wrote it ( books by, Bart Ehrman, Robert Price, Richard Elliot Friedman). There are some good lectures by these people on ytube, too. 

Most local pastors have not done any actual research or study on the subject.

Then, every time you have to go to church, ask a bunch of tough questions. After a short time, you might be asked not to come back. I personally know several former Christians that have done this.

[Socratic Meth Head]

Mom made me go to church today. She texted my preacher and told him i was an atheist and he made some lesson about the reality of scripture. I was skeptical, he made lots of claims and his evidence was eyewitnesses. I thought about how witnesses on 9/11 said they saw no planes and It got rid of that doubt. They talked to me in the car about why i dont believe in prayer and they think im running away from god because i feel guilty of my sins. They are saying i will go to hell but fail to prove hells existance.

Overall its a good day, i can already tell i will never be able to get out of church. They wont let me leave

Do some reading on the history of how the Bible was actually written, and who actually wrote it ( books by, Bart Ehrman, Robert Price, Richard Elliot Friedman). There are some good lectures by these people on ytube, too. 

Most local pastors have not done any actual research or study on the subject.

Then, every time you have to go to church, ask a bunch of tough questions. After a short time, you might be asked not to come back. I personally know several former Christians that have done this.

I have to go with my parents, if that happened then i would just be forced to go to a different church

[MTL]

Forgive me,
I have a bit of a headache at the moment and don't have the energy to catch up on this thread, properly,
so it's possible I may have missed something,

but just from skimming the recent posts, I want to say this:

General Dog, I don't know how old you are or what your level of dependency is, upon your parents,
and I don't wish to give online advice to an anonymous minor to defy their parents;

however, I can tell you that I am a 40 year old woman who was raised in a devout Baptist home,
and I am now Agnostic and Anti-Theism.

The process of rebelling against my family took decades and continued well past the point where I was an independent adult, however
....because I allowed it to.

I also want to note:

If I could go back and do it over,
I would be wiser about how I went about it.

Because the arguments were so emotional and intense, it damaged the family unit,

instead of simply serving the purpose of getting the family to respect my beliefs (or lack thereof)
and stop trying to control me.

I can tell you this:

If I could go back and do it over again,
this is what I would do differently:

1.  I WOULD STAY CALM.
All the rebellion and anger and tears only made me look like a teenager not to be taken seriously.

In fact, if I could go back in time,

I would wisely just do as they asked, obediently,
with no looks, no eyerolls, no comments or arguments...
....and saved myself a lot of futile arguments and tears.

I would have gone to church.
I would have bowed my head at the dinner table.
I would have said Grace if they asked me to.

No arguments whatsoever...I would just let them think that I  shared their beliefs.

And then,
once I was an independent adult,
with my own income, my own place, etc,
I would have simply stopped cold,

and when they seemed surprised
I would say,

"Oh, I became an Atheist years ago,
but I realized you would never have given me any peace if I said so,
so I just went through the motions, to pacify you;

...but now I'm an adult.

I am happy to visit with you and have a relationship with you,
and I respect your right to believe what you want,

but I insist that respect my rights, too,
without being hinted-at, nagged, harassed, bullied, etc. "



2.  And then, when they kept trying to re-open the subject,
I would have simply stopped them and said this:

" Ok, look:  What is it, exactly, that you think you're accomplishing?
I am already very well-acquainted with all your beliefs;
You are flogging a dead horse!


I already know what you believe, and I know why you believe it!!
Repeating it is not going to change anything.

I respect your right to believe what you want,
but for some reason, that is not enough for you.

It is apparently really important to you that I believe the same thing you do.

So consider this:

You believe that Jesus gave YOU the choice and free will to accept Him as your Saviour....right?


But at some point,
you seem to have forgotten that Jesus did NOT give you the right to make the same choice,
ON MY BEHALF.

Whether I am your child, or not,
my soul is my own, to do with as I please,


and I would think that you would hesitate to take it upon yourself
to take from me, the choice that you, yourself believe
Jesus died on the cross, to give me!!

So step off, already.

Do you really think Jesus wants my allegiance
only because you nagged, bullied, and brainwashed me, into it?

And besides which....do you even realize the message that sends, about your lack of faith?

I mean, why don't you just leave it in God's hands?


Pray all you want for my soul,

but don't let me detect ANY TRACE of pressure from you,
...or I will simply leave, any time I feel my beliefs, or lack thereof, are not being fully respected.

So, once and for all:  I consider this subject closed. "


....And then I would have made good on my promise, if they tried to reopen it, again.

No more discussions, no more arguments...I'd just leave.

Eventually they'd get the idea.

[KevinM1]

Do some reading on the history of how the Bible was actually written, and who actually wrote it ( books by, Bart Ehrman, Robert Price, Richard Elliot Friedman). There are some good lectures by these people on ytube, too. 

Most local pastors have not done any actual research or study on the subject.

Then, every time you have to go to church, ask a bunch of tough questions. After a short time, you might be asked not to come back. I personally know several former Christians that have done this.

I have to go with my parents, if that happened then i would just be forced to go to a different church

Then do the same thing there.

Knowledge is power, which is why religion attempts to keep the masses stupid.  Usually, dressing the pig in a new outfit suffices because believers want to believe due to being indoctrinated into it and all of the peer pressures surrounding it.  But religion doesn't really have any answers.  If it did, prayer would have more than a psychosomatic effect in cases of illness and injury.  Prayer certainly hasn't miraculously healed my physical disability, despite how fervently my family prayed after I was born.  What ability I do have is thanks to medical researchers, medical engineers, and a variety of doctors, not some old guy sitting on a cloud somewhere.

And, again, try thinking about religion on the whole.  While Middle Eastern sects were trying to figure their shit out, things were different in the Americas.  They were different in Anglo-Saxon and Germanic Europe.  They were different in Asia.  What makes the Abrahamic religions popular isn't so much their messages, but the might used to spread them.  It seems like Christianity is 'just the way it is' because we're living at the end result of 2000 years or so of conflict (both social and decidingly violent and bloody) to get to this point, and as a result our society has it set as the default.  That doesn't mean it's correct, it's just that, for a variety of reasons, it won out.  

It's like saying that One Direction was the pinnacle of music because they sold a gazillion records and were everywhere for a few years.  Popularity and acceptance has no bearing on quality or correctness.

Hell doesn't exist.  The idea of sin is idiotic (an all-powerful being can be offended/harmed by what we do?  fucking really?).  Eyewitness accounts are incredibly faulty (to the point where people can implant false recollections in others due to how our psychology works: http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/01/p...committed/ which is why police try to get actual forensic evidence), especially when the 'eyewitnesses' are attempting to create and propagate a religion.  Jesus may have existed, but he wasn't magical.  Shit, even the story about the resurrection can't get itself straight in the gospels.

I know I'm kind of ranting (sorry), but indoctrination pisses me off.  I'm happy to see you trying to get out from under it, but it just angers and saddens me to see what effect it has on people.  There's a breathtakingly beautiful existence out there, one that is as amazing in the small (chemistry, quantum physics) as in the large (astronomy), one where life is exceedingly precious because this is the only one we know we have, and a bunch of idiots muck up the work because they believe in the god of ancient sheep fuckers and child rapists, going so far as to war with others over which sheep fucker and child rapist is the best.  You may have the mental illness, but they're the crazy ones.

EDIT: MTL has good advice

[comet]

wow, man. you have bad parents. Love them for who they are. it ok to be pissed, hate, mad, and still love them. as soon as you are old enough you will have to do what you do.

I feel gor ya. I had normal parents that believed. They would Rather I believed but in the end they said if you hurt another person it is us you will fear far more than god. And if you meet him tell him we sent you. sniff sniff, gauwd they loved me. sniff sniff

[robvalue]

If they make you go to church, you can be ready to ask all sorts of awkward questions until they stop making you. Like biblical contradictions.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html

What's this about "eye witnesses"? Most Christians don't know that there is no evidence the gospels are eye witness accounts. They are written 30 years after the events ended, by people who were likely not even born when they took place. They are based on hearsay oral stories, and as such are as reliable as a message smeared in shit on a toilet wall.

I agree with Simon, educate yourself about the bible. Christians don't do this, and you'll have them over a barrel in no time. At the least, they'll get too embarressed to keep bringing you to church armed with fresh questions.

[Socratic Meth Head]

The doubt is back. I dont know why.

My appointment is in 2 days. Dont know if i can wait.

Btw there are great responses above. Thank you all.

[robvalue]

Indoctrination is a really powerful thing. It causes grown adults to go through their whole lives, right into their grave, believing in fairy stories.

You've done really well to break free at an early age. But it's still got its hooks into your emotions, and our emotions are very powerful things. Even when we know they are illogical, they can swipe the logic aside and smother us. I'm really sad for what you're going through, but I think it's perfectly natural.

All I can say is that in almost every case I've ever heard about, the effect of the indoctrination does fade over time. Even if it doesn't fully go away, it gets easier to deal with.

Have you tried yelling at God? Challenging him to come do something? Told him to fuck off? Invited him to kill you? This has helped some people I've known.

[Socratic Meth Head]

Indoctrination is a really powerful thing. It causes grown adults to go through their whole lives, right into their grave, believing in fairy stories.

You've done really well to break free at an early age. But it's still got its hooks into your emotions, and our emotions are very powerful things. Even when we know they are illogical, they can swipe the logic aside and smother us. I'm really sad for what you're going through, but I think it's perfectly natural.

All I can say is that in almost every case I've ever heard about, the effect of the indoctrination does fade over time. Even if it doesn't fully go away, it gets easier to deal with.

Have you tried yelling at God? Challenging him to come do something? Told him to fuck off? Invited him to kill you? This has helped some people I've known.

I have, I've said "Fuck you" to him many times and I had zero emotional response to it. I've called god false pretty loud, nothing.

This is the almost EXACT pattern of HOCD and Harm OCD, with the unwanted though > Anxiety > Re-Assurance > Repeat. Except replace anxiety with painful doubt.

[MTL]

Indoctrination is a really powerful thing. It causes grown adults to go through their whole lives, right into their grave, believing in fairy stories.

You've done really well to break free at an early age. But it's still got its hooks into your emotions, and our emotions are very powerful things. Even when we know they are illogical, they can swipe the logic aside and smother us. I'm really sad for what you're going through, but I think it's perfectly natural.

All I can say is that in almost every case I've ever heard about, the effect of the indoctrination does fade over time. Even if it doesn't fully go away, it gets easier to deal with.

Have you tried yelling at God? Challenging him to come do something? Told him to fuck off? Invited him to kill you? This has helped some people I've known.

I have to agree with this, and I'm kicking myself for not addressing it in my earlier post.

As I said, I was raised from birth in a devout Baptist home,
and despite my stance of Agnostic/Anti-Theism...

(and I do NOT regard "Agnostic" as "Atheism Lite", btw....to me, it is NOT an easy thing to be an Agnostic,
and it troubles me that people treat it as if it is just a noncommittal form of Atheism)

...I know exactly what Rob is talking about; the indoctrination gets into your bones when you're exposed to it from an early age and is a difficult thing to shake completely, indeed.

And I wrestle with depression, probably due in some significant measure as a result of that.

I also remind myself that Religion tells people everything they want to hear,
all the while claiming to be about existing primarily for the reason of singing glory to God:

-unconditional love
-unlimited forgiveness
-eternal life, escape from death
-justice for wrongs
-having "God on your side"
-explaining the inexplicable
-a reason for being
-an invisible best friend or fairygodmother looking out for you

etc.

I figure any God worth worshiping would neither have to bribe people to worship Him,
nor threaten them with Hell if they didn't.

My "Eureka" moment was when I figured out that "faith" and "religion" are two words that are used interchangeably but shouldn't be.

"faith" simply means, to me, a reference to having faith that God exists

"religion" means all the unnecessary dogma people feel the need to apply to their raw faith,
instead of just admitting they don't know anything about God's parameters,
and never will....

...and religion also means that you are not merely content with applying dogma to your faith,
but you ask other people to adopt the same dogma.

Having figured out the vital need to separate these two ideas from each other,
I then learned that there is such a thing as "Deism";

and while I am NOT a Deist,

Deism is the one form of belief that I have no real problem with:

If people want to believe in God,
but reject all the dogmas and religions of the world as likely to be false and therefore potentially heretical,
I can get on board with that.

Faith, without Dogma, is to me, like a snake that has been de-fanged.  It's harmless.

If all Theists were Deists, I wouldn't have any problem with Faith at all, for the most part.