Still struggling.

[MTL]

My mom says "You know in your heart of hearts believe". She says I am just rebelling.

Don't be surprised, as time goes on,
if this behaviour on her part turns out to extend beyond the religious stuff.

My own mother, a devout Christian,
has zero doubt, by this point,
of my Agnosticism and my profound Anti-Theism views,
and knows far better, by now, than to try and engage me on the subject,
because she knows she'll be pulverized in a debate,

but that same pattern of denial still stretches to other things,
and it is just as maddening...for example:

Mom has enabled my narcissistic sister to destroy our family
but takes no responsibility for her own entirely pivotal role and the consequences that result;

I warned her and warned her and warned her that she was driving me away
and past the point of return,

yet only an hour ago,
Mom bizarrely asked me if I want to invite my sisters to my upcoming 40th birthday,
as if none of the shit of the past 10 years ever happened,
and as if I am not at this very moment struggling to cope with the enormous losses
and tragic fallout that resulted from all of Mom's favouritism,
and my sister's evil manipulations.

Unreal.

Well, I am not going to wear out my teeth knawing files.

Once I am finished dealing with my present situation,
THEN reality will come crashing down on my mother
....whether she's in denial, or not.

I have stopped expecting her to be reasonable,
and now just regard her as basically just a crazy old lady
to whom it is an utter waste of time to try to explain even the simplest concepts.

I just walk away when she says stupid shit like that,
not deeming it worthy of a reply.

The closest I get to "Believing" is getting a wave of emotion at upbeat, happy songs at church.
I appreciate the music.

Oh, you're not alone, there.

Some of the finest artwork, most exquisite music, and most magnificent architecture in all of human history,
has been created in praise of God....or in service of the Church, depending on how you look at it.

Just savour the honey, and cast away the sting, that's my advice.

My brother says "I know you will become a christian again, I did so you will."
and my mom agrees, saying "God will always find away."

I'm sorry, honey, but your brother sounds like a bit of a tool....and, I must say, a bit weak-minded, as well.

He took the easy road:  He caved in.  He didn't do the mental legwork.

It does NOT follow that just because he had a certain result, that you will too.

Very very very frequently, siblings end up going in opposite directions,
and being radically different people.

And your mom needs to be reminded that lots of people died without finding their way to God.

However,
a church roof in New Zealand found a way of collapsing and crushing the many faithful inside,
to death,

and a truck in Mexico, not long ago, found a way to plow into a procession of the faithful
who were in the very act of singing praises to God,
and kill a bunch of them, too.

And right now, right this very minute, the world over, lots of evil things are finding a way to happen, too,
and lots of bad people will get away with it and live long, prosperous lives.

God does NOT always find a way.

[MTL]

She also says "You just don't believe because you don't want consequences."

Yeah, I got that one, repeatedly, too.


Finally, one day, I held up my hands and told them to stop saying this to me,

"Because," I said,

"let's put it this way:


"Let's assume that you are right, and that there IS a God, and there IS a Hell,
and that I am on my way to burning in the Lake of Fire for all Eternity....well, I ACCEPT THAT.

"I will 100% accept Hell as my destiny, if that is the reality.

"Because I don't deem your God worthy of worship,
even if it was proven beyond all doubt, tomorrow, that He DOES exist. 

"Moreover, I think it is laughably shallow and tawdry that you profess to worship God because you "love" Him,
when in reality you are only worshiping Him because you want to save your own bacon.

"Would you still  love God so much if He commanded you to worship Him
SIMPLY because He is Almighty and deserving of your worship,
even though He deemed you irretrievably wretched and undeserving of His Salvation,
and said that the only right thing would be to let you burn in Hell, anyway?

"Yet, if He were to say such a thing, it WOULD, after all, be true, wouldn't it?

"What kind of God needs to threaten puny humans into allegiance?
Or, conversely, bribe them with sugary promises of Heaven?

"Why does your Almighty God care about the worship of humans, at all?

"And, I think it's equally ludicrous that God professes to love you,
...yet will allow you to burn in Hell if you don't cave in to His bullying tactics.

"If you really love someone, you would use your power to save them from such a destiny,
even if they didn't do what you wanted them to.

"So stop with this nonsense that I am simply trying to avoid consequences.

"If Hell is my destiny, at the hands of your monstrous God.
I would gladly accept it with open arms...
...better that, than to betray my own sense of right."


NOTE:
I strenuously recommend saying this stuff only AFTER you are moved out on your own
and are firmly independent.

[Socratic Meth Head]

I was going over MTLs post. Near when she said she accepted that if that were true then she would go to hell.

I thought "i dont like to think about hell" which is kinda what they have been saying "you dont want to face the consequences". My OCD has latched onto this and given me anxiety of all things. Still dont believe, and im disgusted with them trying to convert me.

I dont like the movie. Im tired but kinda scared to ask to go to sleep.

[MTL]

I was going over MTLs post. Near when she said she accepted that if that were true then she would go to hell.

I thought "i dont like to think about hell" which is kinda what they have been saying "you dont want to face the consequences". My OCD has latched onto this and given me anxiety of all things. Still dont believe, and im disgusted with them trying to convert me.

I dont like the movie. Im tired but kinda scared to ask to go to sleep.

I'm sorry to hear you live with that kind of fear and anxiety.

[Socratic Meth Head]

Movies over, i find it horribly immoral, that they celebrate and worship someones torture, assuming the man even existed.

Im usually not like this. I can play mortal kombat or something without much care.

Im done, im going to go outside and chill at my pond on sunday because im sick of wasting my own blink of consioussness that i am so lucky to have, going to church, and being forced to worship a god i dont believe.

[SteelCurtain]

Gdog, I'm really sorry you have to cope with that kind of fear and anxiety in your own home. Shit.

[MTL]

Movies over, i find it horribly immoral, that they celebrate and worship someones torture, assuming the man even existed.

Im usually not like this. I can play mortal kombat or something without much care.

Im done, im going to go outside and chill at my pond on sunday because im sick of wasting my own blink of consioussness that i am so lucky to have, going to church, and being forced to worship a god i dont believe.

BRAVO!!!

[robvalue]

Gdog, I'm really sorry you have to cope with that kind of fear and anxiety in your own home. Shit.

I agree. This is totally fucked up.

I'm way beyond thinking they have our friend's best interests at heart. They just can't cope with him not buying their bullshit, and find it so uncomfortable they can't stop preaching at him. They're looking for vadilation and are projecting their insecurities. And they're thinking of their accountability to their death cult's imaginary leaders.

Notice how they are using emotional manipulation rather than reasoned arguments and evidence. That's what theists resort to when they've run out of the former, and sometimes they skip straight to it.

We have theists who have been on this forum for years and are still peddling this "atheists know God exists really" bullshit. It is an explicit display of a totally closed mind that can't even consider someone else may not share their beliefs.

One more thing: phrases like "you don't want there to be consequences" betray a mind overcome with fantasy. They think what you believe affects reality. If you believe in an afterlife, and God, then they are real. If you don't, then they disappear, from your point of view. It also shows how vulnerable they think their God is, that he needs such protecting from an enquiring mind.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

---

My mom says "You know in your heart of hearts believe". She says I am just rebelling.

Don't be surprised, as time goes on,
if this behaviour on her part turns out to extend beyond the religious stuff.

My own mother, a devout Christian,
has zero doubt, by this point,
of my Agnosticism and my profound Anti-Theism views,
and knows far better, by now, than to try and engage me on the subject,
because she knows she'll be pulverized in a debate,

but that same pattern of denial still stretches to other things,
and it is just as maddening...for example:

Mom has enabled my narcissistic sister to destroy our family
but takes no responsibility for her own entirely pivotal role and the consequences that result;

I warned her and warned her and warned her that she was driving me away
and past the point of return,

yet only an hour ago,
Mom bizarrely asked me if I want to invite my sisters to my upcoming 40th birthday,
as if none of the shit of the past 10 years ever happened,
and as if I am not at this very moment struggling to cope with the enormous losses
and tragic fallout that resulted from all of Mom's favouritism,
and my sister's evil manipulations.

Unreal.

Well, I am not going to wear out my teeth knawing files.

Once I am finished dealing with my present situation,
THEN reality will come crashing down on my mother
....whether she's in denial, or not.

I have stopped expecting her to be reasonable,
and now just regard her as basically just a crazy old lady
to whom it is an utter waste of time to try to explain even the simplest concepts.

I just walk away when she says stupid shit like that,
not deeming it worthy of a reply.

The closest I get to "Believing" is getting a wave of emotion at upbeat, happy songs at church.
I appreciate the music.

Oh, you're not alone, there.

Some of the finest artwork, most exquisite music, and most magnificent architecture in all of human history,
has been created in praise of God....or in service of the Church, depending on how you look at it.

Just savour the honey, and cast away the sting, that's my advice.

My brother says "I know you will become a christian again, I did so you will."
and my mom agrees, saying "God will always find away."

---

I'm sorry, honey, but your brother sounds like a bit of a tool....and, I must say, a bit weak-minded, as well.

He took the easy road:  He caved in.  He didn't do the mental legwork.

It does NOT follow that just because he had a certain result, that you will too.

Very very very frequently, siblings end up going in opposite directions,
and being radically different people.

And your mom needs to be reminded that lots of people died without finding their way to God.

However,
a church roof in New Zealand found a way of collapsing and crushing the many faithful inside,
to death,

and a truck in Mexico, not long ago, found a way to plow into a procession of the faithful
who were in the very act of singing praises to God,
and kill a bunch of them, too.

And right now, right this very minute, the world over, lots of evil things are finding a way to happen, too,
and lots of bad people will get away with it and live long, prosperous lives.

God does NOT always find a way.

Remember, a magic number of Christians have to die before Jesus returns. The people who died when the roof collapsed and those that were hit by the bus all add to that number.  Who knows when the magic number will be reached?

[God of Mr. Hanky]

And they're thinking of their accountability to their death cult's imaginary leaders.

Their death cult's real leaders are likely on their minds even more, and that is infinitely more shameful. The matriarch and senior brother of a well-to-do American family in their church can't live up to their obligation of raising the young-uns to be strong in Kreist - what an embarassing scandal this is causing! That's how deep Xtian love is when it's Fundy-mental.