Could atheist westerners, please explain?

[robvalue]

Exactly! It's there to protect religious people. Without religion, we wouldn't even need the concept of secularism (or atheism, pretty much). It's there to protect everyone.

Of course people like Atlas are happy to force everyone to do things their way when their numbers are high, but how happy would he be if another religion sprung up and suddenly he's being forced to live by rules totally against his religion?

It's mob rule, and it's not healthy.

[ReptilianPeon]

.I like your AtlasS32, I think you're nice person, but you're digging a hole for yourself. I think you're totally wrong on the below statement:

Again: it's all about interest.  In Islam the concept of "the end justifies the means" is totally forbidden, while in secularism -correct me if I'm wrong-, it's totally accepted as a concept. One example on that is the creation of Atomic weapons, and the military tactical bombing. Secularism never stopped that from happening.

In Islam the concept of "the end justifies the means" is totally forbidden

Maybe in your ideal version of your religion. You moan about the liars and hypocrites amougst the Ummah at least as much as I do. All of these Taqiya based "scholars", like Yusuf Estes and Zakir Naik - that must have some basis for lying to people (because so many in the Ummah do lie to Kafir, intentionally or otherwise). They are constantly trying to out do each other in terms of Shahadas. They want to look good in front of their brainless worshipers, who all they can utter is "Tasbish" all day long!

I mean, what  is this if it's not just a numbers game to al-Saud's henchmen and others:

---

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They love to assert that they are the fastest growing (even though I proved conclusively in one of my videos that the facts are not on their side). So you're totally wrong. They want as many Shahadas as possible so the end clearly justifies the means. I went on that chatroom, eDialouge, and I was told to watch Zakir Naik. And when I showed Zakir Naik is a noob the guy is like "oh poo, this guy actually knows soemthing".

All over the world I see religion taking advantage of vulnerable and gullible people. They want to keep people stupid because the end justifies the means. Saudi probably keeps Zamzam flowing and everyone thinks that it's Allah that's doing it.

Atomic bombs (ICBMs) had unintended consequences, like giving the technology to first go into space. So it's not as black and white as you make it out to be (but I do hate nuclear weapons). Secularism is also what allows free thinking.

Anarchism can also be either secular or theocratic. There's an entire Wikipedia page, a lengthy one as well, on Christian Anarchism. So I think you're clutching at straws at this point. I can't say that I've really looked into Anarchism, so I don't want to comment on the pros and cons of Anarchism.

The problem is imperialism. Secular Arab nations have attacked Israel. So the problem is the country, not the system. Each country has its ambitions and it just so happens that the United States was the first secular nation. And, let me tell you, if George Washington was alive today he'd be shocked at the state of his country.

[robvalue]

I thought he was a nice person, although extremely confused and indoctrinated, right up until he said he wants to rule over me with his religion. I sincerely hope he will put some thought into what an absurd, barbaric and backward way of thinking this is.

[ReptilianPeon]

I thought he was a nice person, although extremely confused and indoctrinated, right up until he said he wants to rule over me with his religion. I sincerely hope he will put some thought into what an absurd, barbaric and backward way of thinking this is.

Atlas is still so young so I doubt he's fully formed his political opinions yet. I agree on the confused part. Even just three years ago I was so different. I'd be mad too if I was Palestinian, but this topic has just become too crazy.

[Pat Mustard]

Exactly! It's there to protect religious people. Without religion, we wouldn't even need the concept of secularism (or atheism, pretty much). It's there to protect everyone.

Of course people like Atlas are happy to force everyone to do things their way when their numbers are high, but how happy would he be if another religion sprung up and suddenly he's being forced to live by rules totally against his religion?

It's mob rule, and it's not healthy.

Or even a sect within his own religion, like there are so many examples of within islam, which vehemently disagrees with even the slightest deviation from orthodoxy with a chopped off head. Just look at what the wahhabis are doing in Saudi Arabia or their militant wing ISIS are doing in Syria or Iraq. And the shia aren't much better in Iran.

[WinterHold]

Wyrd of gawd

Not at all, it has a noble idea.
It exposes the so lovely, not savage civilized people, living in the civilized world.

Pocaracas

In an ideal, inhumane world, yes, anarchy could work. But humans proved to be tribal beyond believe, all alliances that crossed race fell, either in the ancient world or in nowadays, the soviet union was the last, though. America too, looks like it is heading to the same abyss.

Then we have the behavior. Humans too, proved how ready they are to jump at others & commit the worst kinds of atrocities in order to fetch an interest. "Shoot first, talk later" was always the way.

 I don't side with secularism, because humans cannot be controlled, many tried and failed.
That truth will stay there, and generations would still pass by it, neglecting how history went. There will always be difference. At least between believers and non-believers. 

I do believe though, secularism is better than some other systems; which reward difference with murder and capital punishments.

So, enforcing the idea -even if it was better than some other systems- is actually a type of tyranny, that one has the right to reject if it began to touch their safety and freedom of thought . Seecularism worked  for the west -to some extent-, but it squashed the Middle East. We -Middle Easterns- were the farm that many seculars used to fuel their machine; from our blood that is, the west & secularism have grown. Evidence is on my side. And noting allowed that, but the many holes in the secular system.

Scoobysnack

No, it was the British arsenal; My kin probably thought that the reflection of the European advanced artillery that were given to the Zionists as a form of charity is an angel of some kind.

You should guess that I don't believe you, or agree with you. Just a piece of informative advice: the invaders of Palestine (who were known with names like the Haganah), were ghetto-dwelling criminals, who fought for survival and fought for a promised treasure (promised by Zionist/British propaganda; of course), they didn't smell money for decades, the rich among them hated them (like Herzl; the founder of Zionism); so...it was very tempting to loot the Arabs out of their olive trees, out of their fine lovely land, out of their history, out of their cash income, and out of their heritage.

Jews didn't win; the British empire already had the land (remember WW1? Ottoman defeat?? British taking over Palestine ???) Zionist only suppressed the Arab revolts, nothing more, nothing less.

yep; Falafel is an Arab meal BTW. Ask around for its origin. One t
The only thing I agree with you on is the existence of God.

I shouldn't waste my time and write this comment to you, but I know how religious societies (even Muslim societies) can brainwash the heads of their followers with lies. I smell a wahhabi...sorry, Christian Zionist smell in your ideas.

But please, can you list to me the main reasons, you think Zionists are favored over Arabs/Muslims ?

Constable dorfl

I doubt that you can "slap me" in real life. I agree to take slaps though, from "certain people"; probably you are not one of them; sorry, your gender is the issue.

Though,  Islam offers freedom of religion to all humans, I mean I always cite "Sura 2, Verse 256", and the opposing side always ignores.

Again I repeat: secularism is full of flaws, and is a forced ideology -which means its a premitive ideology-, while Islam -which is an advanced ideology- promises everybody with the freedom of belief. How? read that verse.

To see the difference, if somebody doesn't want Islam, he/she is totally free to refuse and reject its laws, while if somebody was to refuse and reject secular laws, they would be prosecuted. And when seculars play together, stuff like WW2 happen.

It's very ironic to ignore the bombing of Dresden, when the allied seculars, burned their fellow civilian seculars, just beccause they were German. Stories say, that the people who took shelter below, melted and their fats and blood made a mess that is felt inches thick on the ground, from the incendiary bombs of the British and the Americans. Btw the royal airforce knew, that dresden held no strategic value, and that it was filled with civilians..

If you did that to your fellow seculars, what the hell would you do to believers?
Oh..yah..we saw in Iraq.

[scoobysnack]

Scoobysnack

No, it was the British arsenal; My kin probably thought that the reflection of the European advanced artillery that were given to the Zionists as a form of charity is an angel of some kind.

You should guess that I don't believe you, or agree with you. Just a piece of informative advice: the invaders of Palestine (who were known with names like the Haganah), were ghetto-dwelling criminals, who fought for survival and fought for a promised treasure (promised by Zionist/British propaganda; of course), they didn't smell money for decades, the rich among them hated them (like Herzl; the founder of Zionism); so...it was very tempting to loot the Arabs out of their olive trees, out of their fine lovely land, out of their history, out of their cash income, and out of their heritage.

Jews didn't win; the British empire already had the land (remember WW1? Ottoman defeat?? British taking over Palestine ???) Zionist only suppressed the Arab revolts, nothing more, nothing less.

yep; Falafel is an Arab meal BTW. Ask around for its origin. One t
The only thing I agree with you on is the existence of God.

I shouldn't waste my time and write this comment to you, but I know how religious societies (even Muslim societies) can brainwash the heads of their followers with lies. I smell a wahhabi...sorry, Christian Zionist smell in your ideas.

But please, can you list to me the main reasons, you think Zionists are favored over Arabs/Muslims ?

I used to be an anti-zionist, still know Israel is corrupt. However if I had to choose between the Jews and Muslims, i'll take the Jews on my side. I didn't mention it but Israel is important from a geopolitical perspective, and part of a broader plan.

"The First World War must be brought about in order to permit the Illuminati to overthrow the power of the Czars in Russia and of making that country a fortress of atheistic Communism. The divergences caused by the "agentur" (agents) of the Illuminati between the British and Germanic Empires will be used to foment this war. At the end of the war, Communism will be built and used in order to destroy the other governments and in order to weaken the religions." 

"The Second World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences between the Fascists and the political Zionists. This war must be brought about so that Nazism is destroyed and that the political Zionism be strong enough to institute a sovereign state of Israel in Palestine. During the Second World War, International Communism must become strong enough in order to balance Christendom, which would be then restrained and held in check until the time when we would need it for the final social cataclysm." 

"The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the "agentur" of the "Illuminati" between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other. Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion…We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view. This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time."

[TheRocketSurgeon]

Wait, the Desden firebombing wasn't the natural result of two industrialized powers clawing for supremacy and falling into barbaric acts as a result of their quest for power, but because the countries were secular instead of theocratic?!?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!



Dude, seriously. You obviously need to read Slaughterhouse Five by one of the greatest, most outspoken secular humanists (atheists) who ever lived, Kurt Vonnegut, who just happened to have lived through that firebombing by being in a subterranean cooling room for a slaughterhouse, and emerged into the blackened "moonscape" (his word) afterward, if you think any of us think that's okay.

We're also well-aware of the oil politics involved in the western powers' decision to meddle in the Middle East throughout the 20th century and into this one. We don't support the actions of Zionists, seeing it as religious evil no different from anything the radical Muslims do in the name of their religious leaders' interpretation of the requirements-of-the-truly-faithful.

All secular means, in terms of government, is that no religious group gets to use their ideology to set the laws of that nation, and cannot use the power of government to support (or hinder) the religious activities of the free people in that society. Nothing else. The fact that you divide the world into "seculars" and "believers" is genuinely horrifying to me.

[The Grand Nudger]

You should be thankful and get down on your knees to Lord Odin and thank him for caring for us.

Insanity, if you see Odin or Odin's work, the only way into valhalla is to punch it in the face.   He appreciates this part of what makes us human.

[robvalue]

Rocket: Totally agree. It seems he has completely swallowed a load of divisive, inaccurate propaganda. It is really sad. I'd like to continue talking to him, even though I find his position savage, but I can't make any sense out of what he's saying. I think he's been surrounded with this nonsense so long it has replaced reality in his head.

NoMorProp is right though, he's young. Maybe as he grows a bit older and wiser he'll start thinking for himself more and challenging these ideas instead of accepting them all at face value. Right now we're being presented with a massive false dichotomy, in which anything that isn't religious rule is some even worse form of tyranny. That's just ridiculous. Or that opposing tyranny is actually tyranny. Equally ridiculous.