The Problem with Christians

[pocaracas]

Let's say, for argument's sake, that the odds of that happening by sheer chance are a billion to one.
Out of every billion people on earth, one has such a dream at the same time as someone else in their close vicinity and it's temporally close to the actual dream "coming true".

How many people are right now on the face of this planet?
7 billion!
That means that, by sheer luck, 6 more people are having the same sort of prophetic dreams as your wife and her sister.
Still way more likely than god-did-it.

How about you learn some statistics?



As I see it, you're the one who fails at properly grasping the numbers...

Also, "chance" is a word that describes our ignorance of all the factors that play a role in a particular outcome. Just because we don't know them all, doesn't mean they're unknowable (in theory), just unavailable in practice.

I'm not trained in statistics but I think a common sense approach should suffice. If I asked you to pick the correct statement out of two options, with a) having a 99.99999999% chance of being true, and b) having a 0.00000001% chance of being true, I daresay you'd pick a). So when I ask you to determine whether something is either by deliberate design or random chance, you choose the 0.000000001% option. I don't follow the logic. Could it be that bias/prejudice is at work here?

Oh, but if one thing has 0.00000001% chance of being right, while the other has 10^-1000% chance of being right, then I pick the first.

Or are you wanting to suggest that the unverified, unverifiable, mental construct which you are calling supernatural has any more likelihood of being real than 10^-1000%? (And I think I'm being generous there)

The problem with the supernatural is that it can't be repeated... Any scrutiny into it is barred at the gate... All we can work with is someone's testimony. And testimony is a remarkably fragile sort of evidence, considering all the ways in which our brains conspire to make us use faulty reasoning, faulty memories, and reach faulty conclusions based on those.
A good subject to learn about is psychology. It may seem unbelievable to you, but all sort of crazy stuff has been catalogued as illusions, ways to deceive your brain and systematically make you reach a particular result.
Here, have fun with this sample: http://www.npr.org/2011/07/14/137552517/...-our-lives

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

The way I used "supernatural" was not as an occurrence that was simply outside current understanding, but more likely something that is above and beyond what we see as possible, given the laws that govern nature.

'They'll never get that sucker off the ground!' - unnamed observer, Kitty Hawk, North Carolina 17 December 1903.

'They'll never get that big sucker off the ground!' - unnamed observer, Cape Canaveral, Florida 16 July, 1969.

Boru

[AJW333]

If God can create something from nothing then I doubt he would be prohibited from interfering  with his creation in whatever way he felt like.

What makes you think that god can create something from nothing?

Science tells us that 14 billion years ago the universe did not exist. So if there was nothing, then something, we assume God created it from scratch.

More technically though, He created it by the power of his word as he spoke it into being. So I guess he created the universe from something - his word.

More importantly, if you could create a universe by commanding it to exist, tinkering with it would be a cinch, don't you think?

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Defy modelling?

This is getting more ridiculous by the second. It has to be a wind up.

No wind up.

let's revisit the definition of supernatural one more time:

"Of, relating to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal." Dictionary.com

If the supernatural has been modeled, could you point me to an article?

[pocaracas]

Science tell us that the universe is expanding.
From there, working backwards, it was hypothesized that the universe was once all bundled in a small space... And then *big bang* and start spreading.
That's it.
Science does not tell you that the universe didn't exist. You are making that leap for your own purposes (or someone made it for you and you are just a tool... The "proverbial" starship).
Also, stop assuming super complex creatures exist outside of this universe...It is a silly assumption... even if it may be true, we have no way of knowing it, and, most likely, they would have little to do with this universe.

[AJW333]

The problem with the supernatural is that it can't be repeated... Any scrutiny into it is barred at the gate... All we can work with is someone's testimony. And testimony is a remarkably fragile sort of evidence, considering all the ways in which our brains conspire to make us use faulty reasoning, faulty memories,  and reach faulty conclusions based on those.

Agreed!! And from personal experience I've seen all manner of crazy claims to witnessing supernatural acts that aren't really supernatural at all. Trust me, I get the skepticism. At the end of the day, you have to weigh up the evidence and make your choice. We all have our biases - as for me I have faith that the supernatural exists. For others, they would deny it, even if they saw the dead raised, nothing would break down their prejudice.

A good subject to learn about is psychology. It may seem unbelievable to you, but all sort of crazy stuff has been catalogued as illusions, ways to deceive your brain and systematically make you reach a particular result.
Here, have fun with this sample: http://www.npr.org/2011/07/14/137552517/...-our-lives

I'll check it out.

[robvalue]

So your idea of a debate is to repeat your claim endlessly, ignoring any and all objections.

[AJW333]

Science tell us that the universe is expanding.
From there, working backwards, it was hypothesized that the universe was once all bundled in a small space... And then *big bang* and start spreading.
That's it.
Science does not tell you that the universe didn't exist.

Fair enough, although it is popular with some physicists to theorize that our universe didn't exist at some point, and was created from a parallel universe or some other dimension.

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So your idea of a debate is to repeat your claim endlessly, ignoring any and all objections.

Where's that article about modelling the supernatural?

[abaris]

Where's that article about modelling the supernatural?

Where's the evidence of the supernatural existing in the first place? I know I'm repeating myself, but somehow that question seems to have escaped your notice. Hmm, wonder why that is?

[robvalue]

Where's the evidence vampires can be killed without using a wooden cross dipped in holy water?

[FebruaryOfReason]

For others, they would deny it, even if they saw the dead raised, nothing would break down their prejudice.

I am a convinced Atheist. I'll make you a deal.

You show me an instance of someone who starts to live again after being clinically dead for say a week, in a way I can investigate myself* - so that I can rule out any obvious physical explanation - and I will believe in the supernatural.

But there's another half to the bet. If you believe that you are going to spend eternity in heaven, you obviously don't need all your worldly goods. Any possession you have is irrelevant next to the eternal bliss that awaits you.

So give all your money to me, except a bit to feed, clothe and house you. If you know that - ultimately - you're going to be rewarded with far more than money, then anything you have now doesn't matter at all.

Deal?


*This means no "It says in Isiah 1010:2534 that X raised Y from the dead", or "Some guy got swallowed by a whale once and he lived". It means contemporary reports where witnesses are available for interview, and I can visit the scenes myself, examine the physical evidence myself, etc.