The Problem with Christians

[athrock]

I'm pretty sure that even in the context of the story, the whole Red Sea thing violated the free will of the Egyptians who drowned in it. Not to mention that this follows immediately after ol' YHWH deliberately suspended the Pharaoh's ability to exercise his free will by hardening his heart. Multiple times.

I'm pretty sure that even in the context of the story, the whole Red Sea thing violated the free will of the Egyptians who drowned in it. Not to mention that this follows immediately after ol' YHWH deliberately suspended the Pharaoh's ability to exercise his free will by hardening his heart. Multiple times.

Right, which I was going to mention, but I anticipated something along the lines of:

"Drowning the Egyptians didn't actually violate their free will.  They still maintained their free will to want to live, they just weren't able to accomplish the goal they willed for."

Or something equally as retarded.

Heh...yeah...you got me there. 

Seriously, God punished the Egyptians and drowned them in the Red Sea, but that did not have to happen. Moses asked for the release of the Israelites politely in the beginning, and he demonstrated that he was speaking for God by numerous signs.

Now, we CAN go through this entire argument again (we did this before Lent began, remember?), but do you really need to hear the explanations again?

As y'all are fond of saying, search the old threads. Exodus was thoroughly explained to you in the past.

[LadyForCamus]

I'm pretty sure that even in the context of the story, the whole Red Sea thing violated the free will of the Egyptians who drowned in it. Not to mention that this follows immediately after ol' YHWH deliberately suspended the Pharaoh's ability to exercise his free will by hardening his heart. Multiple times.

Right, which I was going to mention, but I anticipated something along the lines of:

"Drowning the Egyptians didn't actually violate their free will.  They still maintained their free will to want to live, they just weren't able to accomplish the goal they willed for."

Or something equally as retarded.

Heh...yeah...you got me there. 

Seriously, God punished the Egyptians and drowned them in the Red Sea, but that did not have to happen. Moses asked for the release of the Israelites politely in the beginning, and he demonstrated that he was speaking for God by numerous signs.

Yeah...he did...and God hardened the Pharaoh's heart! He was not acting of his own free will. God set the entire scenario up so that it would play out exactly as it did.

[athrock]

Heh...yeah...you got me there. 

Seriously, God punished the Egyptians and drowned them in the Red Sea, but that did not have to happen. Moses asked for the release of the Israelites politely in the beginning, and he demonstrated that he was speaking for God by numerous signs.

Yeah...he did...and God hardened the Pharaoh's heart! He was not acting of his own free will.  God set the entire scenario up so that it would play out exactly as it did.

Are you really interested in understanding this, Lady? 

Seriously. Do you want an explanation, or would you rather maintain your ignorance so that you can use this cudgel at will?

[athrock]

Oh, believe me, you OWN that title. None of the other gals posting here even come close.

I didn't realize I was perceived that way...but...I think I'm okay with it.  [emoji41]

I knew you would be pleased. You might even change that little description under your avatar.

Kind of a badge of honor for you, no? 

[AAA]

That is just not possible. The same chemical laws that allow DNA to exist are the same chemical laws that allow oxidants and such to react with it and mutate it. The same biological principles that allow our cells to divide are the same biological principles that allow cancer cells to proliferate. 

It's like saying: people get sunburns. Why not have a world without a sun?

God, is God.  Why not have a world without a sun?  Why did god create a world where the entities living in it were bound by it's natural laws?  Why did he even create natural laws in the first place?  How come things don't simply maintain their own existence via magic and sparkles?  I've asked this a few times...still waiting for an answer.

Why did God create natural laws? Because without them we would have no way to discern or understand the universe. We would not be able to make consistent observations if there were no laws that the universe obeyed. The universe would be unintelligible. Also if magic and sparkles were how things maintained their existence, then they would be exactly the same as natural laws wouldn't they? You can call gravity/entropy magic if you want to.

[LadyForCamus]

Yeah...he did...and God hardened the Pharaoh's heart! He was not acting of his own free will.  God set the entire scenario up so that it would play out exactly as it did.

Are you really interested in understanding this, Lady? 

Seriously. Do you want an explanation, or would you rather maintain your ignorance so that you can use this cudgel at will?

Go for it, man.

[LadyForCamus]

I didn't realize I was perceived that way...but...I think I'm okay with it.  [emoji41]

I knew you would be pleased. You might even change that little description under your avatar.

Kind of a badge of honor for you, no? 

What, my Tom Waits quote? Hell no, I love that song!

[athrock]

Are you really interested in understanding this, Lady? 

Seriously. Do you want an explanation, or would you rather maintain your ignorance so that you can use this cudgel at will?

Go for it, man.

Thank you. 

If someone wants to discuss a subject like evolution or cosmology intelligently with you, you would expect the other party to have some minimum baseline of knowledge, agreed? And you would be right to do so. Now, in order to to acquire that knowledge, some reading would probably be necessary.

Just so, I can point you in the general direction of an answer to why or how God did not "harden Pharaoh's heart", but you will want to do a bit of reading to grasp the argument in its fullest form. I'll provide a link to a good article and an excerpt...you should read the full presentation which is not too long.

Here we join the the article mid-stream:

In his copious work on biblical figures of speech, E.W. Bullinger listed several ways that the Hebrew and Greek languages used verbs to mean something other than their strict, literal usage. He listed several verses that show that the languages “used active verbs to express the agent’s design or attempt to do anything, even though the thing was not actually done” (1898, p. 821). To illustrate, in discussing the Israelites, Deuteronomy 28:68 states: “Ye shall be sold (i.e., put up for sale) unto your enemies…and no man shall buy you.” The translators of the New King James Version recognized the idiom and rendered the verse, “you shall be offered for sale.” The text clearly indicated that they would not be sold, because there would be no buyer, yet the Hebrew active verb for “sold” was used. In the New Testament, a clear example of this type of usage is found in 1 John 1:10, which states, “If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him [God—KB/DM] a liar.” No one can make God a liar, but the attempt to deny sin is the equivalent of attempting to make God a liar, which is rendered with an active verb as if it actually happened. Verbs, therefore, can have idiomatic usages that may convey something other than a strict, literal meaning.

With that in mind, Bullinger’s fourth list of idiomatic verbs deals with active verbs that “were used by the Hebrews to express, not the doing of the thing, but the permission of the thing which the agent is said to do” (p. 823, emp. in orig.). To illustrate, in commenting on Exodus 4:21, Bullinger stated: “ ‘I will harden his heart (i.e., I will permit or suffer his heart to be hardened), that he shall not let the people go.’ So in all the passages which speak of the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart. As is clear from the common use of the same Idiom in the following passages” (1968, p. 823). He then listed Jeremiah 4:10, “ ‘Lord God, surely thou hast greatly deceived this people’: i.e., thou hast suffered this People to be greatly deceived, by the false prophets….’ ” Ezekiel 14:9 is also given as an example of this type of usage: “ ‘If the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet’: i.e., I have permitted him to deceive himself.” James MacKnight, in a lengthy section on biblical idioms, agrees with Bullinger’s assessment that in Hebrew active verbs can express permission and not direct action. This explanation unquestionably clarifies the question of God hardening Pharaoh’s heart. When the text says that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, it means that God would permit or allow Pharaoh’s heart to be hardened.

From: WHO HARDENED PHARAOH'S HEART?
http://apologeticspress.org/apcontent.as...ticle=1205

I look forward to hearing your thoughts once you have had some time to consider the weight of the entire article.

[athrock]

I knew you would be pleased. You might even change that little description under your avatar.

Kind of a badge of honor for you, no? 

What, my Tom Waits quote?  Hell no, I love that song!

No, that's your signature. 

You can add a line under your name and avatar. Mine says, "Come, let us reason together."

You could be "Snark Queen" or something like that, but you have to add that yourself.

[Mr.wizard]

Go for it, man.

Thank you. 

If someone wants to discuss a subject like evolution or cosmology intelligently with you, you would expect the other party to have some minimum baseline of knowledge, agreed? And you would be right to do so. Now, in order to to acquire that knowledge, some reading would probably be necessary.

Just so, I can point you in the general direction of an answer to why or how God did not "harden Pharaoh's heart", but you will want to do a bit of reading to grasp the argument in its fullest form. I'll provide a link to a good article and an excerpt...you should read the full presentation which is not too long.

Here we join the the article mid-stream:

In his copious work on biblical figures of speech, E.W. Bullinger listed several ways that the Hebrew and Greek languages used verbs to mean something other than their strict, literal usage. He listed several verses that show that the languages “used active verbs to express the agent’s design or attempt to do anything, even though the thing was not actually done” (1898, p. 821). To illustrate, in discussing the Israelites, Deuteronomy 28:68 states: “Ye shall be sold (i.e., put up for sale) unto your enemies…and no man shall buy you.” The translators of the New King James Version recognized the idiom and rendered the verse, “you shall be offered for sale.” The text clearly indicated that they would not be sold, because there would be no buyer, yet the Hebrew active verb for “sold” was used. In the New Testament, a clear example of this type of usage is found in 1 John 1:10, which states, “If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him [God—KB/DM] a liar.” No one can make God a liar, but the attempt to deny sin is the equivalent of attempting to make God a liar, which is rendered with an active verb as if it actually happened. Verbs, therefore, can have idiomatic usages that may convey something other than a strict, literal meaning.

With that in mind, Bullinger’s fourth list of idiomatic verbs deals with active verbs that “were used by the Hebrews to express, not the doing of the thing, but the permission of the thing which the agent is said to do” (p. 823, emp. in orig.). To illustrate, in commenting on Exodus 4:21, Bullinger stated: “ ‘I will harden his heart (i.e., I will permit or suffer his heart to be hardened), that he shall not let the people go.’ So in all the passages which speak of the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart. As is clear from the common use of the same Idiom in the following passages” (1968, p. 823). He then listed Jeremiah 4:10, “ ‘Lord God, surely thou hast greatly deceived this people’: i.e., thou hast suffered this People to be greatly deceived, by the false prophets….’ ” Ezekiel 14:9 is also given as an example of this type of usage: “ ‘If the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet’: i.e., I have permitted him to deceive himself.” James MacKnight, in a lengthy section on biblical idioms, agrees with Bullinger’s assessment that in Hebrew active verbs can express permission and not direct action. This explanation unquestionably clarifies the question of God hardening Pharaoh’s heart. When the text says that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, it means that God would permit or allow Pharaoh’s heart to be hardened.

From: WHO HARDENED PHARAOH'S HEART?
http://apologeticspress.org/apcontent.as...ticle=1205

I look forward to hearing your thoughts once you have had some time to consider the weight of the entire article.

Why would god have to allow or permit Pharaoh's heart to be hardened if Pharaoh already had free will? Either way your saying god intervened and changed something, which in turn would violate free will.