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RE: Free will and humans
March 10, 2016 at 8:24 pm
(This post was last modified: March 10, 2016 at 8:25 pm by Angrboda.)
This whole business about forming an algorithm is one big red herring. You admit that computers can form algorithms, but only because humans program them. Well this is tacitly accepting that an algorithm can form an algorithm. If humans can form an algorithm then, it is not necessarily the case that their doing so is non-algorithmic. Algorithms can create algorithms and since that means that human algorithm formation could be algorithmic, it defeats the premise that algorithm formation is a sign of free will, because human algorithm creation could itself be deterministically algorithmic.
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RE: Free will and humans
March 10, 2016 at 9:34 pm
(March 10, 2016 at 8:06 pm)Jehanne Wrote: (March 10, 2016 at 1:02 pm)pool the great Wrote: Can your bacteria form an algorithm to break dance?
No, but is there any human being who can form an algorithm to solve the "Traveling Salesman Problem" in linear time?
Yes
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Free will and humans
March 10, 2016 at 9:35 pm
(March 10, 2016 at 8:24 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: This whole business about forming an algorithm is one big red herring. You admit that computers can form algorithms, but only because humans program them. Well this is tacitly accepting that an algorithm can form an algorithm. If humans can form an algorithm then, it is not necessarily the case that their doing so is non-algorithmic. Algorithms can create algorithms and since that means that human algorithm formation could be algorithmic, it defeats the premise that algorithm formation is a sign of free will, because human algorithm creation could itself be deterministically algorithmic.
Sometimes I think about how much higher your IQ is than mine, and it just makes me feel pathetic and sad...lol.
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
Wiser words were never spoken.
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RE: Free will and humans
March 10, 2016 at 9:36 pm
(March 10, 2016 at 8:24 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: This whole business about forming an algorithm is one big red herring. You admit that computers can form algorithms, but only because humans program them. Well this is tacitly accepting that an algorithm can form an algorithm. If humans can form an algorithm then, it is not necessarily the case that their doing so is non-algorithmic. Algorithms can create algorithms and since that means that human algorithm formation could be algorithmic, it defeats the premise that algorithm formation is a sign of free will, because human algorithm creation could itself be deterministically algorithmic.
*head blows up*
Where in the world did anyone admit computers can form their own algorithms
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RE: Free will and humans
March 10, 2016 at 9:39 pm
(March 10, 2016 at 9:35 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: (March 10, 2016 at 8:24 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: This whole business about forming an algorithm is one big red herring. You admit that computers can form algorithms, but only because humans program them. Well this is tacitly accepting that an algorithm can form an algorithm. If humans can form an algorithm then, it is not necessarily the case that their doing so is non-algorithmic. Algorithms can create algorithms and since that means that human algorithm formation could be algorithmic, it defeats the premise that algorithm formation is a sign of free will, because human algorithm creation could itself be deterministically algorithmic.
Sometimes I think about how much higher your IQ is than mine, and it just makes me feel pathetic and sad...lol. I wouldn't worry too much about it.
Iq cannot measure intelligence as a whole, only a part of what constitutes intelligence, so you may very well be a genius in some of those aspects iq tests cannot measure 
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RE: Free will and humans
March 10, 2016 at 10:18 pm
(This post was last modified: March 10, 2016 at 10:19 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Do you think that you, or anyone, has to -admit- that computers form algorithms? They demonstrably do, regardless. In any case, have you come up with that argument yet, or have you abandoned it in favor of prevarication?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Free will and humans
March 10, 2016 at 11:32 pm
(March 10, 2016 at 9:34 pm)pool the great Wrote: (March 10, 2016 at 8:06 pm)Jehanne Wrote: No, but is there any human being who can form an algorithm to solve the "Traveling Salesman Problem" in linear time?
Yes
Then you do not know much about algorithms or combinatorics; no known linear solution exists for the TSP, at least in general.
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RE: Free will and humans
March 11, 2016 at 12:10 am
Pool, what was it that created your desire to start this thread?
And then what caused that and then what caused that and then what caused that and so on.
We could follow these causes back to your birth.
Did you create your own personality and birth.
No, you have no control over the cascading dominos that is your life.
If I could go back in time to before you created this thread and told you that you will create this thread, only then could you change the outcome and not create this thread.
You are a ball rolling down the hill.
Where you end up depends entirely on the shape of the hill and gravity.
Anyway, I was always going to say that. :-)
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RE: Free will and humans
March 11, 2016 at 12:48 am
(This post was last modified: March 11, 2016 at 12:53 am by Whateverist.)
(March 10, 2016 at 9:35 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: (March 10, 2016 at 8:24 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: This whole business about forming an algorithm is one big red herring. You admit that computers can form algorithms, but only because humans program them. Well this is tacitly accepting that an algorithm can form an algorithm. If humans can form an algorithm then, it is not necessarily the case that their doing so is non-algorithmic. Algorithms can create algorithms and since that means that human algorithm formation could be algorithmic, it defeats the premise that algorithm formation is a sign of free will, because human algorithm creation could itself be deterministically algorithmic.
Sometimes I think about how much higher your IQ is than mine, and it just makes me feel pathetic and sad...lol.
We all feel that way. Well .. most of us. Maybe not Rhythm .. but whatever you do don't challenge him to a duel.
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RE: Free will and humans
March 11, 2016 at 12:50 am
(March 10, 2016 at 9:39 pm)pool the great Wrote: (March 10, 2016 at 9:35 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Sometimes I think about how much higher your IQ is than mine, and it just makes me feel pathetic and sad...lol. I wouldn't worry too much about it.
Iq cannot measure intelligence as a whole, only a part of what constitutes intelligence, so you may very well be a genius in some of those aspects iq tests cannot measure
Frankly I think it is like buying speakers. If you can't hear a difference, it doesn't make a difference. Same goes with smarts. You may as well content yourself with what you've got, because you're in no position to recognize someone who knows more than you do. (You might just be easily cowed.)
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