Shia & Sunna: Why I don't believe

[Brian37]

I'd say a book is pretty badly written if I have to read all of it before I can understand what the first few pages mean.

How so?
The da vinci code is one of the most awesome novels I read in my life. Things always made sense at the end, I stayed clueless for most of the book.

The beginning never makes sense without the end, in so many cases

Lots of people like Star Wars and Harry Potter too, but there has yet to be wars started over those.

[Simon Moon]

Not going to waste my time reading this thread, but I love the fact that we have Mystic and Atlas debating their BS with each other.


What's the saying?

Two bald men fighting over a comb.

Carry on....

[Brian37]

Not going to waste my time reading this thread, but I love the fact that we have Mystic and Atlas debating their BS with each other.


What's the saying?

Two bald men fighting over a comb.

Carry on....

No different than Catholics and Protestants fighting each other, but I will give them credit, they aren't violent over their disagreements.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

First if one believes in God and Quran, every verse he has to think, Allah [swt] chose these words out of infinite words. But a lot of people instead of looking to see what a verse might be saying, what's it's message, how does it flow with respect to the verses in the Surah, are there similar themes in other Surahs, etc...they just like to belittle it's sanctity and deny it's relevance to us. 

They belittle the words God while claiming they believe in them. 

If we reflect over Quran, everything becomes easy. If we don't reflect, everything it teaches remains ambiguous. It doesn't prove God and his Oneness this way, neither does it prove Prophethood of Mohammad, neither does it prove Wilayah of Ali and his successors this way.

But with reflection the book unravels, and it's wisdom becomes clear. It's intended meaning and light therein shines. 

May God enlighten our hearts and ease our burdens.

Don't forget to spread the ointment between your toes. Very important.

Boru

[Mystic]

Do you not see those given a portion from the book they buy error and desire you go astray from the path.


And God knows your enemies and sufficient is God as a Guardian and Sufficient is he as helper.

From the Jews were people who alter words from their places and they say we heard and disobeyed, and they heard as one who hears not and listen to us distorting with their tongue and slandering the religion and if they said we heard and we obeyed and do hear and do look upon us it would of been better for them and more upright but God has cursed them for their disbelieve so they don't believe but a little.

O you who are given the book, believe   in what We have (now) revealed, confirming what was (already) with you, before We change the face and fame of some (of you) beyond all recognition, and turn them hindwards, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers, for the decision of God Must be carried out.

Indeed God doesn't forgive to be associated with him, and he forgives what is below that of who he pleases, and who associates with God he devised a great sin.

Do you not see those who attribute purity to themselves, but rather God purifies who he wills, and they will not be dealt with unjustly.

See how they attribute lies to God and sufficient is it as great sin.

Do you not see how a portion are given a portion from the book, they believe in the Jibt (sorcery) and Taghut (that which is falsely worshiped or that which transgresses bounds) and say these are more guided then who believe in a path.

Do they have a share in the authority? So they would not give the people in even a speck in the date stone.

Or do they envy the people for what God has given them out of his grace? So we gave the family of Abraham, the book and the wisdom, and gave them a great authority.





So of them is who believe in it and of them is who turned away from it, and sufficient is hell as burning.




Indeed those who disbelieve in Our Ayat (instances of guidance, signs, revelations, etc), We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely God is Mighty, Wise.

And (as for) those who believe and do good deeds, We will make them enter gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them for ever; they shall have therein pure mates, and We shall make them enter a dense shade.

God commands you to give the trusts to their owners, and that if you judge between people, to do so by justice, indeed God admonishes with you what is excellent, indeed God is hearing knowing.

O You who believe, obey God and obey the Messenger and those who possess the authority from you, therefore if you dispute in a thing, refer it to God and the Messenger if you believe in God and the last day, this is better and best in ending.


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My comments:

The verse starts with awakening us to a people who wish to lead astray others. These verse people came down and inherited a false leadership by people who distort God's words from their places and who wanted to be obeyed and listened to while they themselves didn't truly hear and obey the message of the Prophets. 

Then it goes on to talk about how these leaders attribute purity to themselves while they aren't truly pure. They put the mantle of purity so they can lead people in religion and they wish to be heard.

It talks about how they in fact believe in the Jibt and Taghut, the latter is shown in Quran to be all those who disbelievers follow and lead them from the light to the darkness (verse 2:257).

So it can be seen they believe in false authority and false leadership, who are idolized, and put a long side God in the obedience and value owed to him.

Then it asks an important question "Or do they have a share in the authority?", and they weren't claiming authority over the heavens and the earth or control or they were given the kingdom, but were claiming they were leaders that ought to be followed for guidance by society.

Then it talks about an alternative motive, or is really the case they envy those people out what God has given them out of his grace? What has he given them? So we gave the family of Abraham the book and the wisdom and gave them a great authority. 

Here it's saying well they acknowledge Isaac, Jacob and Joseph and Abraham, being given leadership and authority that was divine and must be obeyed...so do they claim they have a share in that authority? Or are they envying a people who have that authority while they acknowledge such a way of God in the past?

Then it goes on to emphasize some people believed in it and others turned away from it, and if we think about it, the issue of submission to God was always through acknowledging the authority of his representatives.

However here it's negating the authority of scholars and religious leaders in general, except for those who God gives authority to.

Then it emphasizes those who disbelieve in God's Ayat (plural of Aya), in Quran Jesus is said to be an "Aya" to people. 

Then it contrasts on the other hand the reward of those who believe and do good.

Then it reminds of that trusts ought to be given to their owners and that justice should be what rules between people's affairs.

Then it commands believers to obey God and obey the Messenger and those who possess the authority from them to the extent they refer all dispute back to God and the Messenger if they believe in God and the last day.

What is unclear about these verses?

It's emphasizing on the true authority given by God, that scholars of Jews and Christians had no such authority, but rather such authority was given to the family of Abraham and indeed it was a great authority that who disbelieved in it was in sure loss and who believed in it had a reward, that indeed who disbelieve in God's Ayat are in hell and those who believe and do good are in paradise, and that one of the purposes of God establishing this authority is for the rule and judgement of justice between people.  And it's this light, flow, and context, it says to obey the Ulil-Amr (those who possess the authority).

Is there any room for speculation? Isn't this clear that what is meant here is people who are similar to the family of Abraham, given authority like the family of Abraham? 

Is this not clear? 

Or is it as the verses themselves warn in the start, that people "hear but do not hear", "hear but disobey"...and "distort verses from their places" like the Jews did in the past....and that they do so because they wished to be followed and obeyed in the religion, claiming an authority that doesn't belong to them?


@Catholic_Lady ...if you read this, can you tell me is it clear to you that what is meant here is people given the divine authority like that of the family of Abraham?

I know Atlas won't accept, but can you tell me what you think of these verses?

[Simon Moon]

Am I the only one, or does anyone else get the idea that Mystic does not really get that we don't believe any of his chosen religion's, BS? Or Quran passages?

He always seems to ask question about Quran passages as if they have any truth in reality. And we should just accept their truth without question.

[Mystic]

Atlas, read these verses with a heart and let the flow tell you what God intended for leadership of this nation:


So how is it when we bring from every people a witness and make you a witness against these?

On that day those who disbelieve and disobeyed the Messenger that the earth was leveled with them and that they didn't hide from God a saying.

O you who believe, do not go near prayer when you are intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to a perform a both - unless (you are) travelling on the road - until you have washed yourselves, and if you are sick or on a journey, or on eof you from the priv or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, and wipe your faces and your hands, surely God is Pardoning Forgiving.

Do you not see those given a portion from the book they buy error and desire you go astray from the path.

And God knows your enemies and sufficient is God as a Guardian and Sufficient is he as helper.

From the Jews were people who alter words from their places and they say we heard and disobeyed, and they heard as one who hears not and listen to us distorting with their tongue and slandering the religion and if they said we heard and we obeyed and do hear and look upon us it would of been better for them and more upright but God has cursed them for their disbelieve so they don't believe but a little.

O you who are given the book, believe   in what We have (now) revealed, confirming what was (already) with you, before We change the face and fame of some (of you) beyond all recognition, and turn them hindwards, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers, for the decision of God Must be carried out.

Indeed God doesn't forgive to be associated with him, and he forgives what is below that of who he pleases, and who associates with God he devised a great sin.

Do you not see those who attribute purity to themselves, but rather God purifies who he wills, and they will not be dealt with unjustly.

See how they attribute lies to God and sufficient is it as great sin.

Do you not see how a portion are given a portion from the book, they believe in the Jibt (sorcery) and Taghut (that which is falsely worshiped or that which transgresses bounds) and say these are more guided then who believe in a path.

Is it that they have a share in the authority? So they would not give the people in even a speck in the date stone.

Or do they envy the people for what God has given them out of his grace? So we gave the family of Abraham, the book and the wisdom, and gave them a great authority.

So of them is who believed in it and of them is who turned away from it, and sufficient is hell as burning.

Indeed those who disbelieve in Our Ayat (instances of guidance, signs, revelations, etc), We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely God is Mighty, Wise.

And (as for) those who believe and do good deeds, We will make them enter gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them for ever; they shall have therein pure mates, and We shall make them enter a dense shade.

God commands you to give the trusts to their owners, and that if you judge between people, to do so by justice, indeed God admonishes with you what is excellent, indeed God is hearing knowing.

O You who believe, obey God and obey the Messenger and those who possess the authority from you, therefore if you dispute in a thing, refer it to God and the Messenger if you believe in God and the last day, this is better and best in ending. 

Have you not seen those who assert they believe in what has been revealed to you and what has been revealed before you, they wish to go the the judgement of the Taghut  and they were ordered to disbelieve in it and Satan wishes they go astray in remote error.

And when it said to them, come to what God has revealed and the Messenger, you will see the hypocrites turning away from you a great aversion.

But how will it when misfortune fall upon them by what their hands have earned? They will say come swearing by God, they didn't desire anything but good and success.

These are they who God knows what is in their hearts, so turns aside from them and admonish them, and speak effectual words concerning themselves.

And we do not send a Messenger but that he be obeyed by God's permission, and had they when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness from God and the Messenger asked forgiveness for them, they would of found God oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful.

But no, by our Lord, they will not believe until they make you the judge by which they have disputed among themselves, and they do not find any straightness to what you have decided, and submit with entire submission.

And if we prescribed for them lay down your lives or go forth from your homes, they would not have done it save a few, and if they done what is admonished by them, it certainly would of been better for them and most intense in strengthening.

And we certainly would of given from ourselves a great reward.

And we certainly would of guided them in the right path.

And whoever obeys God and his Messenger, then these are with those who God has favored from the Prophets and Veracious ones, and the Witnesses and the Righteous, and good company are they.

This is the grace from God and sufficient as God as the Knowing.

O you who believe, take your precautions, and go forth in detachments or go forth in a group.

And certainly among you is he who would hang back, if a misfortune befalls you, they will say God has favored me that I was not present among them.

And if grace from God comes to you, he would certainly cry out, as if there had not been any been any love between you and him, were it that I was with them, so that I would be attained a might fortune.

Therefore let him fight in the way of God those who sell this world's life for the next world, then he be slain or he be victorious, we will give him from ourselves a great reward.

And what reason have you not to fight in the God, and the weak among the men and women and the children say: "O God cause us to go forth from this town, who's people are oppressors, and give us from you a Wali (Guardian) and give us from you a helper.

Those who believe fight in God's way and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the Taghut, so fight the friends of Satan, surely the strategy of Satan is weak.

Have you not seen those to whom it was said: withhold your hands, and keep up prayers and the poor-rate, but when fighting is prescribed for them, then a party of them fear men as they ought to have feared God or with a greater fear and say: "Our Lord, why have you ordained fighting for us? Why did you not grant us a delay near the end?"Say: The provision of this world is short, and the hereafter is better for him who guards, and you shall not be wronged the husky of date stone.

Wherever you are death will over take you, though you are in lofty towers, and if a benefit comes to them, they say: This is from God and if a misfortune befalls them, they say: This is from you. Say: All is from God but what is the matter with these people that they make no effort to understand what is told to them?

Whatever benefit comes to you (o human) then it is from God and whatever evil comes to you it is from yourself, and we have sent you as a Messenger to humans, and sufficient is God as a witness.

And they say: obedience, but when they go away from your presence, a party of them decide by night by doing otherwise then what you say and God writes down what they decide by night, therefore turn away from them and trust in God and God is sufficient as a protector.

Do they not meditate on the Quran? And if were from other then God, they would of found much discrepancy in it.

And when a matter of safety and fear come to them, they spread it abroad, and if they had referred it to the Messenger as well as those who Possess the Authority from them, those who can search out the knowledge from them would of known it, and were it not for God's grace and mercy upon you, you would of followed Satan save a few. 

Fight then in God's way and this is not imposed except in relationship to yourself, and rouse the believers, maybe God will restrain the fighting of those who disbelieve, and God is strongest in prowess and strongest in given exemplary punishment.

Whoever joins himself to a good cause, they will have part of it, and whoever joins himself to an evil cause, they will have responsibility over it, and God has control over all things.

And if you are greeted by a greeting, greet the like of it or better then it, indeed God takes account of all things.

God, there is no God but he, and he will gather you on the day of rising, there is no doubt in it, and who is more truthful in word then God?

What is matter with you, that you have become two parties regarding the hypocrites, and God has made them return by what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him who God has caused to err, and whoever God causes to err, you will find no way for him.

They wish for you to disbelieve, like they have disbelieved, so that you will be the same, so do not take from them friends, until they they fly in God's way, so if they turn back, take them and kill them wherever you find them, and do not take from them a friend or helper.

Except who reaches to a people who you have a covenant with, or who's heart shrink from fighting you or fighting their own people, and if God willed, he would of given them power over you so that they fight you, so if they abandon you, and they do not fight you and offer you peace, so God has not given you a way against them.

You will find others who you find desire to be safe from you and secure for their own people, so as often they are sent back to mischief they get thrown into it headlong, so if if they do not withdraw from you, and offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and against these we have given you a clear authority.

And it doesn't behoove a believer to kill a believe except by mistake, and whoever kills a believer by mistake, he should free a believing slave, and blood money should be paid to his people unless they remit it as alms, but if he be from a tribe hostile to you and he is a believer, then free a believing slave (is sufficient), and if he is from a tribe between who you and his people is a covenant, then blood money should be paid and a freeing of a slave, but he who cannot find (a slave) should fast two months successively a penance from God, and God is knowing wise.

And whoever kills a believer intentionally, then his punishment is hell, he shall abide in it, and God's wrath is upon him, and curse him and prepare for him a painful punishment.

O you who believe, when you are sent in God's way, make investigation, and do not say to anyone who offers you peace, you are not a believer, do you seek the goods of this world's life? But with God are abundant gains, you too were such before, then God then conferred benefit upon you, so make investigation, surely God is aware of what you do.

The holders back from among the believers, not having an injury, and those who strive in God's way with their property and lives are not equal, God has made those who strive with their property and lives to excel those who hold back a degree, and to each God has promised good, and God shall grant to the those who strive over those who hold back a might reward.

Degrees from him, and protection/forgiveness from him and mercy and God is forgiving merciful.

Indeed those who Angles causes to die while they are unjust to themselves, they will say: in what state where you, they will say: we were weak in the earth, they will say: Wasn't God's earth spacious so that you would migrated therein? So these who abode is hell, and it is an evil resort.

Except the weak among them men, women, and children, who have no power for means and are not a guided a way.

So it maybe these God will pardon, and God is Pardoning, Forgiving.

And whoever migrates in the way of God he will find in the earth there is many places of refuge and abundant resources, and whoever goes forth from his house migrating to God and his Messenger, and then death overtakes him, his reward is indeed with God, and God is forgiving, merciful.

And when you on journey, there is no blame upon you to shorten the prayer, if you fear those who disbelieve will cause you distress, verily the disbelievers are to you an manifest enemy.

And when you are among them and keep up the prayer for them, let a party of them stand up with you, and let them take their arms; then when they have prostrated themselves let them go to your rear, and let another party who have not prayed come forward and pray with you, and let them take their precautions and their arms; (for) those who disbelieve desire that you may be careless of your arms and your luggage, so that they may then turn upon you with a sudden united attack, and there is no blame on you, if you are annoyed with rain or if you are sick, that you lay down your arms, and take your precautions; surely God has prepared a disgraceful chastisement for the disbelievers.

 Then when you have finished the prayer, remember God standing and sitting and reclining; but when you are secure (from danger) keep up prayer; surely prayer is a timed ordinance for the believers.

And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain, and you hope from God what they do not hope; and God is Knowing, Wise.

Indeed We have revealed the Book to you with the truth that you may judge between people by means of that which Allah has shown you; and be not an advocate on behalf of the treacherous.

And ask forgiveness of God, verily God is Forgiving Merciful.

And do not plead on behalf of those who act unfaithfully to their souls; surely God does not love him who is treacherous, sinful;

They hide themselves from men and do not hide themselves from God, and He is with them when they meditate by night words which please Him not, and God encompasses what they do.

Behold! you are they who (may) plead for them in this world's life, but who will plead for them with God on the resurrection day, or who shall be their protector?

And whoever does evil or acts unjustly to his soul, then asks forgiveness of God, he shall find God Forgiving, Merciful.

And whoever commits a sin, he only commits it against his own soul; and God is Knowing, Wise.

And whoever commits a fault or a sin, then accuses of it one innocent, he indeed takes upon himself the burden of a calumny and a manifest sin.

And were it not for God's grace upon you and His mercy a party of them had certainly designed to bring you to perdition and they do not bring (aught) to perdition but their own souls, and they shall not harm you in any way, and God has revealed to you the Book and the wisdom, and He has taught you what you did not know, and God's grace on you is very great.

[TubbyTubby]

I'm sorry Mystic -no actually I'm not- but you keep on practicing gymnastics around arguments, I mean this is becoming useless because it looks like I'm wasting time and comments on debating a person who never responds to what I "ACTUALLY WRITE".

Welcome to our world.

[robvalue]

It barely matters what the actual words say. People will "reflect" and "interpret" and "feel" and do whatever else they need to do before convincing themselves that it actually means what they want it to mean.

Everyone thinks they have the special recipe. Yet they all disagree, and there is no answer book to see who is right.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I would also recommend lightweight, loose-fitting undergarments - 100% cotton is ideal. Get some air movement going.

Boru