Shia & Sunna: Why I don't believe

[Brian37]

I believe it's the key for the prosperity of humanity. We are treating it unjustly as we are treating the family of Mohammad unjustly.

Until we become sincere to both, with Quran having a great weight and more responsibility geared towards it, then humanity will remain divided and will not realize the mercy meant for them in the divine rule of Imam Mahdi.

No, the key to prosperity is for Islam to ditch its dark age submission demands of the rest of the world, but to be fair also Christians and Jews as well also ditch the stupid idea that any 3 are the "chosen people".

I find the idea of all three of these God/s which really are the same god, I find it sick that humans love to claim them to be all powerful and all loving with all the fighting between them. If you had three kids would you stick knives and guns in their hands and say "Last one standing gets to hang out with me". It just seems to be a really shitty thing to set up as a condition if you say you want a good environment for all. 

Your empathy for wanting a peaceful planet isn't because there is a real puppet master pulling everyone's strings. The real reason you want peace is because evolution drives our species to desire cooperation, because when we cooperate, we reduce conflict. There is not Jesus or Yahweh or Allah needed to explain reality.

If you refrain from physically harming others, again, it is not because a god is telling you not to, your evolutionary empathy is doing that. Unfortunately the idea of religion, ALL religions in human history worldwide, allow our species to ignore that we are not a separate species and the religion in turn ends up setting up "us vs them", and that does have a very negative affect on our species ability to seek cooperation and have empathy for others.

[Brian37]

"divine rule" yep that is what every religion in the world stems from.

Long before the modern monotheism even to the earliest writings humans falsely attached their success to the divine, especially royalty, and even in prior polytheism, which all three Abraham religions stem from, humans lived under tribal kingships and those kings falsely thought their success and rights came from above. Not even Buddhism escapes this motif. The first Buddha is depicted in mythology of being born of Queen Maya, whom was told by the "divine world" that she would give birth to a boy who would grow up to bring wisdom to the world.

I get that you really want your hero to be true, but so does every religion's followers. Now instead of insisting on being all dreamy eyed, or assuming the questioning of your religion is somehow a magical super villain, how about considering that EVERY religion started in antiquity all lived in a scientifically ignorant past, yours, and Christians and Jews and Buddhists and Hindus, everyone.

The reality is that there is no Allah or Yahweh or Jesus or Vishnu or "Karma" ect ect. The real source as to why we have compassion, and why we act out in cruelty is because those behaviors are in us, not religion. So if we want to foster more cooperation and less violence worldwide, I think we need to ditch old claims that do not reflect our modern understanding of biological evolution.

[Mystic]

God chose Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of Imran above the worlds. (3:33)


That is of which Allah gives the good news to His servants, (to) those who believe and do good deeds. Say: I do not ask of you any wage for it except love in the near relatives (of mine); and whoever earns good, We give him more of good therein; surely Allah is Forgiving, Thankful. (42:23)


Say: whatever I have asked of you of a wage, it is for yourselves, verily my  wage is with God and he is a witness upon all things.(34:47)

Say: No wage have I asked of you for it, except for who wants to take towards his Lord a path.(25:57)

These are they who God has guided therefore follow their guidance. Say: I do not ask you a wage for it that it be but a reminder/remembrance to the worlds.(6:90)

 And you do not ask them a wage for it that is but a remembrance/reminder to the worlds/nations/peoples. (12:104)

Or do you ask them a wage? Then surely the wage of your Lord is better, and he is the best of those who provide sustenance. And surely you call them to a straight path. (23:72-73)

Say: I do not ask you for it any wage - and I am not of those who affect -
That it be but a reminder/remembrance to the worlds. 
And ye shall certainly the truth of it after a time.
(38:86-88)

Or do you ask them a wage so that they are over overburdened by a debt?(52:40, 68:46)



مَا أَفَاءَ اللَّهُ عَلَىٰ رَسُولِهِ مِنْ أَهْلِ الْقُرَىٰ فَلِلَّهِ وَلِلرَّسُولِ وَلِذِي الْقُرْبَىٰ وَالْيَتَامَىٰ وَالْمَسَاكِينِ وَابْنِ السَّبِيلِ كَيْ لَا يَكُونَ دُولَةً بَيْنَ الْأَغْنِيَاءِ مِنْكُمْ ۚ وَمَا آتَاكُمُ الرَّسُولُ فَخُذُوهُ وَمَا نَهَاكُمْ عَنْهُ فَانْتَهُوا ۚ وَاتَّقُوا اللَّهَ ۖ إِنَّ اللَّهَ شَدِيدُ الْعِقَابِ 
 
 

Sahih International: And what Allah restored to His Messenger from the people of the towns - it is for Allah and for the Messenger and for [his] near relatives and orphans and the [stranded] traveler - so that it will not be a perpetual distribution among the rich from among you. And whatever the Messenger has given you - take; and what he has forbidden you - refrain from. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is severe in penalty.

Pickthall: That which Allah giveth as spoil unto His messenger from the people of the townships, it is for Allah and His messenger and for the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, that it become not a commodity between the rich among you. And whatsoever the messenger giveth you, take it. And whatsoever he forbiddeth, abstain (from it). And keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is stern in reprisal.

Yusuf Ali: What Allah has bestowed on His Messenger (and taken away) from the people of the townships,- belongs to Allah,- to His Messenger and to kindred and orphans, the needy and the wayfarer; In order that it may not (merely) make a circuit between the wealthy among you. So take what the Messenger assigns to you, and deny yourselves that which he withholds from you. And fear Allah; for Allah is strict in Punishment.

Shakir: Whatever Allah has restored to His Messenger from the people of the towns, it is for Allah and for the Messenger, and for the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, so that it may not be a thing taken by turns among the rich of you, and whatever the Messenger gives you, accept it, and from whatever he forbids you, keep back, and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is severe in retributing (evil):

Muhammad Sarwar: Whatever God grants to His Messenger (out of the property) of the people of the towns, belongs to God, the Messenger, the kinsfolk, the orphans, the destitute and to those who may become needy while on a journey, so that it will not circulate only in the hands of rich ones among them. Take only what the Messenger gives to you and desist from what he forbids you. Have fear of God; God is severe in His retribution.

Mohsin Khan: What Allah gave as booty (Fai') to His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) from the people of the townships, - it is for Allah, His Messenger (Muhammad SAW), the kindred (of Messenger Muhammad SAW), the orphans, Al­Masakin (the poor), and the wayfarer, in order that it may not become a fortune used by the rich among you. And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it) , and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Severe in punishment.

Arberry: Whatsoever spoils of war God has given to His Messenger from the people of the cities belongs to God, and His Messenger, and the near kinsman, orphans, the needy and the traveller, so that it be not a thing taken in turns among the rich of you. Whatever the Messenger gives you, take; whatever he forbids you, give over. And fear God; surely God is terrible in retribution.











 



 

[Brian37]

God chose Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of Imran above the worlds. (3:33)


That is of which Allah gives the good news to His servants, (to) those who believe and do good deeds. Say: I do not ask of you any wage for it except love in the near relatives (of mine); and whoever earns good, We give him more of good therein; surely Allah is Forgiving, Thankful. (42:23)


Say: whatever I have asked of you of a wage, it is for yourselves, verily my  wage is with God and he is a witness upon all things.(34:47)

Say: No wage have I asked of you for it, except for who wants to take towards his Lord a path.(25:57)

These are they who God has guided therefore follow their guidance. Say: I do not ask you a wage for it that it be but a reminder/remembrance to the worlds.(6:90)

 And you do not ask them a wage for it that is but a remembrance/reminder to the worlds/nations/peoples. (12:104)

Or do you ask them a wage? Then surely the wage of your Lord is better, and he is the best of those who provide sustenance. And surely you call them to a straight path. (23:72-73)

Say: I do not ask you for it any wage - and I am not of those who affect -
That it be but a reminder/remembrance to the worlds. 
And ye shall certainly the truth of it after a time.
(38:86-88)

Or do you ask them a wage so that they are over overburdened by a debt?(52:40, 68:46)



مَا أَفَاءَ اللَّهُ عَلَىٰ رَسُولِهِ مِنْ أَهْلِ الْقُرَىٰ فَلِلَّهِ وَلِلرَّسُولِ وَلِذِي الْقُرْبَىٰ وَالْيَتَامَىٰ وَالْمَسَاكِينِ وَابْنِ السَّبِيلِ كَيْ لَا يَكُونَ دُولَةً بَيْنَ الْأَغْنِيَاءِ مِنْكُمْ ۚ وَمَا آتَاكُمُ الرَّسُولُ فَخُذُوهُ وَمَا نَهَاكُمْ عَنْهُ فَانْتَهُوا ۚ وَاتَّقُوا اللَّهَ ۖ إِنَّ اللَّهَ شَدِيدُ الْعِقَابِ 
 
 

Sahih International: And what Allah restored to His Messenger from the people of the towns - it is for Allah and for the Messenger and for [his] near relatives and orphans and the [stranded] traveler - so that it will not be a perpetual distribution among the rich from among you. And whatever the Messenger has given you - take; and what he has forbidden you - refrain from. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is severe in penalty.

Pickthall: That which Allah giveth as spoil unto His messenger from the people of the townships, it is for Allah and His messenger and for the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, that it become not a commodity between the rich among you. And whatsoever the messenger giveth you, take it. And whatsoever he forbiddeth, abstain (from it). And keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is stern in reprisal.

Yusuf Ali: What Allah has bestowed on His Messenger (and taken away) from the people of the townships,- belongs to Allah,- to His Messenger and to kindred and orphans, the needy and the wayfarer; In order that it may not (merely) make a circuit between the wealthy among you. So take what the Messenger assigns to you, and deny yourselves that which he withholds from you. And fear Allah; for Allah is strict in Punishment.

Shakir: Whatever Allah has restored to His Messenger from the people of the towns, it is for Allah and for the Messenger, and for the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, so that it may not be a thing taken by turns among the rich of you, and whatever the Messenger gives you, accept it, and from whatever he forbids you, keep back, and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is severe in retributing (evil):

Muhammad Sarwar: Whatever God grants to His Messenger (out of the property) of the people of the towns, belongs to God, the Messenger, the kinsfolk, the orphans, the destitute and to those who may become needy while on a journey, so that it will not circulate only in the hands of rich ones among them. Take only what the Messenger gives to you and desist from what he forbids you. Have fear of God; God is severe in His retribution.

Mohsin Khan: What Allah gave as booty (Fai') to His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) from the people of the townships, - it is for Allah, His Messenger (Muhammad SAW), the kindred (of Messenger Muhammad SAW), the orphans, Al­Masakin (the poor), and the wayfarer, in order that it may not become a fortune used by the rich among you. And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it) , and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Severe in punishment.

Arberry: Whatsoever spoils of war God has given to His Messenger from the people of the cities belongs to God, and His Messenger, and the near kinsman, orphans, the needy and the traveller, so that it be not a thing taken in turns among the rich of you. Whatever the Messenger gives you, take; whatever he forbids you, give over. And fear God; surely God is terrible in retribution.











 



 

NO, the Adam and Eve story is a myth, and not even the oldest creation myth in human history. Hindus also have their first persons myths too.

Evolution, not the OT, not the Bible and not the Quran, but evolution scientifically explains where our species comes from. The humans who invented all three religions had no modern concept of evolution, those stories were gap filling horrible guesses. 

Now, we can get into how immoral that story is regardless. You have two humans thrust into a position with no say or knowledge or consent in the matter, and for what, a rigged bet between this god and his arch rival, which puts the Adam and Eve characters as poker chips. Then on top of treating them like toys, poker chips, he blames them for the game he didn't have to set up. 

There is no consent in that story at all, it is still authoritarian, and simply dictation and preying on innocent people who had no say in the matter. Now again, the story is not real, but as an idea, as a concept, it is a very vile story. 

Try this thought exercise as an example and tell me if you would think this is moral.

Ok, lets say I am your dad, and you find a girlfriend at your grade school, and I make a bet with the bully on the playground that I can get you and your girlfriend to break the school's rules that get you thrown out of the school, despite you and your girlfriend's lacking the same understanding you have yourself, on top of knowing yourself it is also a bet you didn't have to make? Keep in mind your god is the adult and you are just a kid by comparison.

Now, you might respond "Daddy knows best" but that is not an answer. It still remains that this motif has basically a GIANT(god as an idea) manipulating a midget(kid) who has no clue what is going on and gets punished for a bet they had no clue of or say in.

Would you find me moral if I were your dad and made a bet with your life over your life like that? 

Or, I lets say I bet my neighbor I could get you to cross a busy highway and get run over, would it be ok if you were my kid to blame you if you were too young to understand the dangers of a highway, but I knew and still made that bet even though I didn't have to?

Look man, this isn't about your right to believe one bit. But on two fronts why this logic fails. Most importantly science in evolutionary biology, isn't claiming two individuals as being firsts, but common ancestors as plural firsts, just like a hurricane doesn't drop rain one by one, but has many raindrops fall at the same time.

The second front is the morality of this story, and that fails as well. It is nothing but authoritarianism and arbitrary dictating and using human beings as props, toys, lab rats to make you look good(god as an idea).

[Brian37]

Oh and you claim Noah too, well so do Christians and Jews, and?

Still and regardless, that too is also not only scientifically wrong, but also immoral as well.

Real science proves there never was a global flood, it is literally scientifically impossible. Flood myths are a result of humans mistaking local floods for the entirety of the planet.

But morally that too is a vile story. Again, your kids are not behaving the way you want, so your solution is to chose mass murder, genocide, including the kids of the adults, the babies of the adults, and even adults whose only crime was picking the wrong club. I have the same problem with Jews and Christians who use the flood story.

Then after all that drama, you are left with one family, and just like the Adam and Eve story, you are still stuck with the scientific reality of a limited gene pool which would require incest. Do you really want to claim ownership of that?

Look the reality is those books exist because humans lived under tribal kinghips and on top of that lacked our modern understanding of nature. The religions of antiquity reflected the times they lived in, and those bad guesses were understandable because humans didn't know any better. But we have much better tools now to understand nature and understand where our species empathy and cruelty come from.

[TubbyTubby]

It's bizarre reading well worded logical explanations and then see Mystics "reply" which has no relevance to your post whatsoever. A mish mash of scripture quotes and indoctrinated fuddled non thinking. We should be used to it I suppose.

[Brian37]

It's bizarre reading well worded logical explanations and then see Mystics "reply" which has no relevance to your post whatsoever. A mish mash of scripture quotes and indoctrinated fuddled non thinking. We should be used to it I suppose.

I include all religions worldwide of every label when I say this.

As soon as you buy the car failing to inspect(test, not fish for excused to buy it) it prior, it can set you up to justify anything. All religions without exception have been used to justify both compassion and cruelty. Now again, it isn't that you can rid the world of it, you cant, and to try with force would require you to become a monster yourself. But our species should never be afraid of challenging claims, even knowing we still have to live in an imperfect world.

[WinterHold]

I believe it's the key for the prosperity of humanity. We are treating it unjustly as we are treating the family of Mohammad unjustly.


Until we become sincere to both, with Quran having a great weight and more responsibility geared towards it, then humanity will remain divided and will not realize the mercy meant for them in the divine rule of Imam Mahdi.

But what did we ever do to them, Mystic?
Why are you trying to enforce that tribal madness on me and on other humans? I really don't care about the prophet's family!

Is this why the followers of the Shia faith keep cutting their bodies and teach their children to self-harm on the day of Ashura'a?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatbir

And I thought "Overneath The Path of Misery" by Manson to be twisted ! No, he was so smart, and did described the tale that is told by an idiot, that struts..

Please when you preach your religion, at least be honest enough to tell us about all the gory details; mystic.
So you want me to self-harm like this for the sake of a family that I know nothing about?

And honestly, from a historical reading, the family of prophet Mohammed wasn't that nice indeed, I mean you also made a huge gymnastic jump around the Sura that curses Mohammed's uncle; promising him hell..for the historical and literal honesty, allow me to quote the holy book:

Sura 11
( 1 )   May the hands of Abu Lahab be ruined, and ruined is he.
( 2 )   His wealth will not avail him or that which he gained.
( 3 )   He will [enter to] burn in a Fire of [blazing] flame
( 4 )   And his wife [as well] - the carrier of firewood.
( 5 )   Around her neck is a rope of [twisted] fiber.

For the record:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ab%C5%AB_Lahab

I mean this guy is so famous. 

What do you want me to do Mystic? to submit my soul, money and stuff to a tribe that I know nothing about? 
So you take my shit..or I'm a demonically possesed, ignorant "Kafir" who should be beheaded, and you guys are used to blood I mean this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatbir

And when people face the followers of your faith with the truth, you do this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiya

Of course, depending on your definition of the word prosecution   
Not cool Mystic..

[WinterHold]

Blaming westerners for ruining our region?
We raped it.

We ruined our own.
Rape rape persephone

Murder for a family..That is already dead..so so IDK

Yah, again, quoting myself:

Again Mystic: where the hell is the mention of the family of Mohammed?
Where are the 12 Imam's names, that you order me and the rest of humanity to obey??

Don't expect to get taken seriously when the information you claim DON'T EXIST.
Fine, I can understand an atheist not believing in the Quran, a Muslim not believing in Judaism, a Hindu not believing in Buddhism, but for a person, to try to enforce an information that doesn't exist in the holy book he claims it exists in on all of humanity? Mindblowing, right?

IDK..please don't dodge and waste your time writing gigantic comments, that represent big jumps around questions, in an infinite gymnastic game, that decorated the middle east for 1400 years.

I'm waiting for your answer :/
And please, just answer, without threats or reminding me that you don't want to insult me (BTW it's okay..probably I won't return the insult, not because I'm trying to be a bigger man, I actually love to insult people who insult me, but because wasting your energy on the keyboard is just not healthy. And eventually it leads to the rape of persephone. Check Iraqi news ) >< it can't be simpler than this.

I want the page and the verse that tells me to obey the family of Mohammed

[Brian37]

Blaming westerners for ruining our region?
We raped it.

We ruined our own.
Rape rape persephone

Murder for a family..That is already dead..so so IDK

Yah, again, quoting myself:

Again Mystic: where the hell is the mention of the family of Mohammed?
Where are the 12 Imam's names, that you order me and the rest of humanity to obey??

Don't expect to get taken seriously when the information you claim DON'T EXIST.
Fine, I can understand an atheist not believing in the Quran, a Muslim not believing in Judaism, a Hindu not believing in Buddhism, but for a person, to try to enforce an information that doesn't exist in the holy book he claims it exists in on all of humanity? Mindblowing, right?

IDK..please don't dodge and waste your time writing gigantic comments, that represent big jumps around questions, in an infinite gymnastic game, that decorated the middle east for 1400 years.

I'm waiting for your answer :/
And please, just answer, without threats or reminding me that you don't want to insult me (BTW it's okay..probably I won't return the insult, not because I'm trying to be a bigger man, I actually love to insult people who insult me, but because wasting your energy on the keyboard is just not healthy. And eventually it leads to the rape of persephone. Check Iraqi news ) >< it can't be simpler than this.

I want the page and the verse that tells me to obey the family of Mohammed

Atlas, as well intended as you are, and it is great that Muslims are questioning other Muslims like this, you gave the answer as to why it is "tribal madness" away in your own answer. 

That is the reason, right there, but not just why Muslims are divided, no, this is what religion does, causes divisions, and all religions have them. It's not that religion was raped, it was a bad idea in the first place. Now again, that is not saying you can end it by force, you cant.

But you should consider the times ALL religions, including prior polytheism got started in. Hinduism, Buddhism, the Ancient Greeks and Romans and the Egyptians all lived in class systems ruled by Royalty and the second class was the warrior class, then the serfs no name. And back then the mortality rate was much higher, and back then your survival as a subject of that king depended on the tribe doing what that ruler said. 

Even the ancient Romans were not modern democracies, they were also ruled by immovable Cesars whom if they wanted them removed before they died, often came from political murder or family murder, not court impeachment. 

"Tribal madness" has only been tamped down in the secular west, but the underpinnings are still there. We have Christians on the right who don't agree with Christians on the left. We have our right justifying harm to gays, control over female bodies, and constant claims of "Christian nation". 

All holy books of Christians and Jews and Muslims are weapons and all of them are used to justify both compassion and cruelty. The only difference between the east and the west is that we have had a longer time managing our differences to a more civil degree. But believe me, I don't value the mentality of universal blanket force to any bad those in the East do and justify it with the Quran. And I run into even some atheists who value blanket solutions of force as a default. I am not one of them.

I think it is worth it for my species to consider worldwide, that it isn't enough to simply point to the pretty stories and acts of kindness, they all have them. I think the bigger picture is to consider that our ability to be cruel or compassionate is not in the holy writing itself, but our evolution that we project into those writings and mistake it as the source. 

But I am certainly willing to concede an imperfect word and as long as you at least insist your own label, and I mean all religions, reduce any and all as much as possible, on all sides, the excuse to pick up a book and justify violence with it, it certainly is far better than a "scorched earth" policy. I don't remember who said it, but "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind".