Problems understanding naturalistically the beginning of the universe

[Wryetui]

Hello to everyone (I have seen a post that is like this one but the forum adviced me to create another thread since that one was too old).

This matter "worried" me most when I was an atheist. I deeply believe that God created ex-nihilo the universe and I find it correct due to a number of reasons, but in this thread I am interested in speaking only naturalistically, in order to consider if actually the atheist cosmology is plausible now that I have a better understanding of the world and to eventually find a solution to this struggle that my atheist friends now (and myself many years ago) have. According to the Wikipedia: "The Big Bang is a scientific theory about how the universe started, and then made the groups of stars (called galaxies) we see today. The universe began as very hot, small, and dense, with no stars, atoms, form, or structure (called a "singularity"). Then about 14 billion years ago, space expanded very quickly (thus the name "Big Bang"), resulting in the formation of atoms, which eventually led to the creation of stars and galaxies. The universe is still expanding today, but getting colder as well.", and this is what I believed. But my main question is, since: "The universe began as very hot, small, and dense, with no stars, atoms, form, or structure (called a "singularity"). Then about 14 billion years ago, space expanded very quickly", since the universe actually began, where did it begin from? The universe is all we know for sure (and sometimes not even for sure), but how can something exist outside the universe? Where was this very hot, small and dense structure since the universe "didn't happen" yet?

Thank you, and I remind that I would want this thread to remain naturalistic, without interference from any kind of religion account.

[Little lunch]

As an atheist I don't care how everything started. I don't think anyone will ever know.
Even if they did it would neither prove nor disprove god.

[ApeNotKillApe]

What did God exist within before creating the universe?

[J a c k]

I don't know. (Best answer, I win!)

[TheRocketSurgeon]

That question is the subject of much debate. However, since it is apparent from physics that what we perceive as "time" is in fact a dimension connected to the others, functioning as interconnected with them, there is no such thing as "before" the Big Bang, since time as a term would become meaningless. So when someone says it "began", they're referring to the start of time.

However, we cannot know (or do not yet know) whether there was some other factor causing time or anything else to exist outside the Singularity, independent of it. We would have to invent whole new maths to even ponder that question (physicists have overtly said so), and frankly, I think it's only of passing interest to science, for now, since we're still trying to figure out our own universe-- from Dark Matter/Energy to the Higgs Boson to the problem of completing the Theory of Everything.

On the other hand, I hear theists mention this question a lot, and seem to consider the start of the universe some sort of proof for God, even though it's child's play to show that the Cosmological Argument makes entirely too many assumptions to even begin to demonstrate that the concept we humans call "God" is necessary or plausible.

[wiploc]

... in order to consider if actually the atheist cosmology is plausible ...

What you're asking about is scientific cosmology.  I assume that many Christians accept this cosmology.  And I also assume that many atheists don't.

... since the universe actually began, where did it begin from?

I don't know whether it began: 

• Asimov said it began at the big bang, but then he immediately hedged by saying something like, "Or at least we can _call_ that the beginning, since we don't know what happened before that." 
  
• Hawking made the same move in _A Brief History of Time_.
  
• I went onto campus to find a cosmologist to put this question to.  When I found one, he said, "Nobody knows what happened before the big bang.  Nobody knows what happened before the big bang.  Nobody knows what happened before the big bang."    
  

So I'm not in a position to have an opinion on whether the universe really began, at the big bang or otherwise.

To ask where the big bang "came from" is the same as saying that the universe didn't really begin then.  

In any case, if you can't explain where your gods came from, then you're in no position look down on those who can't explain where the rest of the universe came from.  

The universe is all we know for sure (and sometimes not even for sure), but how can something exist outside the universe? Where was this very hot, small and dense structure since the universe "didn't happen" yet?

If you can't answer those questions about your gods, then you shouldn't feel any better than the rest of us.  

If you want to smugly challenge people to answer a question, it should be a question you can answer yourself.   

Saying, "You people can't answer this question any better than I can," doesn't make you superior.  

Thank you, and I remind that I would want this thread to remain naturalistic, without interference from any kind of religion account.

Your whole point is that religion provides better answers.  You can't prove that without religion.  You can't prove it at all, but you can't even try to prove it without religion.  

Imagine this conversation:

Christian: "My car is better than yours, because your car is an ugly brown."

Atheist: "Oh, yeah?  Well your car is an ugly brown too."

Christian: "I remind you that this discussion is to remain about your car, without interference from any kind of mention of my car."  

In order for your argument to weigh more than zero on the scales of persuasion, you have to show that theists have a better cosmology than scientists.  You can't do that while leaving religion out of it.  


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[robvalue]

It hasn't been concluded whether or not the universe had a beginning. It's an open question, as far as I'm aware.

[ignoramus]

Our universe, and everything we think we know about it started the instant Kevin pressed "Enter" on his sim called:

Earth~beta-ver.0.9c(©@UniversesR-US™).exe

[Redbeard The Pink]

Are we even gonna bring up the fact that this is already an argument from ignorance in the making, or are waiting until he actually makes it?


Also, what the hell is "atheist cosmology"? Atheism only concerns whether any gods exist. It has nothing to do with cosmology. There is no such thing as atheist cosmology.

[robvalue]

Yeah, I mentioned that previously. There is no "atheist" anything. It seems that was an airball from me.

People make a lot of assumptions about atheists. Even assuming they are naturalists is incorrect.