Most personally convincing reasons you don't believe.

[purplepurpose]

I think that believing means acting. In Gods case it means becoming his servant for your ultimate good and for the common. Such feats require alot of sacrifice or pain to be endured.

I met few hardcore religious people. There were very sincere and to me it seem that they wished to be some sort of "hero/young saint" who brings ultimate good not only to himself but the rest of the people. I can only respect such selfless attitude. But im not in the mood to suffer for my personal and common "ultimate" good. Thats too epic, too much.

[Joods]

I can't buy into that. No... just look at Creflo Dollar or Benny Hill. So-called "leaders" for god. Hell, let's use Joel Osteen as a fine example here... lives in a 10 million dollar mansion. He's a self-proclaimed servant of god. But doing good for the rest of the people? While living in luxury? I think not.

One only has to look at the leaders of any mega church to see that there is nothing selfless or heroic about the cars they drive or the houses they live in. That is, they are people who have learned how to use an imaginary figure to make a very fat profit off of the backs of countless followers whom are most likely suffering and barely able to make their own ends meet.

[purplepurpose]

I can't buy into that. No... just look at Creflo Dollar or Benny Hill. So-called "leaders" for god. Hell, let's use Joel Osteen as a fine example here... lives in a 10 million dollar mansion. He's a self-proclaimed servant of god. But doing good for the rest of the people? While living in luxury? I think not.

One only has to look at the leaders of any mega church to see that there is nothing selfless or heroic about the cars they drive or the houses they live in. That is, they are people who have learned how to use an imaginary figure to make a very fat profit off of the backs of countless followers whom are most likely suffering and barely able to make their own ends meet.

Politicians steal, lie and sent people to war thought lies to steal from neighbors. Power corrupts and always will. But it doesn't change the fact that there are many "little angels" in christian churches. Leaders of the church aren't saints. They have lust and greed in them as well.

[robvalue]

"I've come to warn you about my boss! He's fucking crazy! He'll do horrible shit to you, for real! You need to kiss his ass, starting right now. Anyone who doesn't is gonna get ripped up."

"I think I know somewhere we can hide from him!"

"Why would I want to hide? He loves me, and I love him."

"What!?"

"Oh, and he's invisible and no one else can hear him when he talks to me."

"K..."

[Athene]

This is what the outpouring of the Holy Spirit is (what we are supposed to be A/S/K-ing for) It is direct contact with God. My proof of God is meaningless outside as an example of what God offers to do for each and every single one of you who will simply "meet Him in the upper room" by Ask, Seek Knocking for the Holy Spirit.

Bit of a random musing, actually; You know what I've never really heard? A theist/apologist teaching that God doesn't answer some folks because he hates them. Or rather, knows they wouldn't make a good fit, so to speak.

That would be a perfectly "plausible" explanation as to why some people never hear back from Him, next to Him just not being there, of course. 
At least as likely as "not believing right", it would seem. 
Though, I can certainly understand why you all would think that would be no good could come of telling telling some folks that they will never be 'called'. 

If your God already knows who won't make the cut, that would make A/S/King an exercise in futility for some, wouldn't it?
Heh heh...If people have A/S/Ked and received radio silence, may they should just take the hint.

[Cyberman]

I can't buy into that. No... just look at Creflo Dollar or Benny Hill. So-called "leaders" for god. Hell, let's use Joel Osteen as a fine example here... lives in a 10 million dollar mansion. He's a self-proclaimed servant of god. But doing good for the rest of the people? While living in luxury? I think not.

Hey, leave Benny Hill alone! If the worst he ever did was slap old Jackie Wotsit's bald head and then get chased by page 3 models in bikinis on undercranked film, all to the tune of Yaketty Sax, I'll follow him to hell and back.

[Drich]

Yet for all that, Drich, there are many who can tell you that for all their "faith", god failed them at every turn.

Actually what failed was the 'faith' they placed in the version of god they created and fostered.
Which clearly does not exist.
Again, I've used this example many times in this thread already, but in the parable of the wise and foolish builders The wise man builds his house, his 'faith'/belief on the truth of Christ (Christ's teachings and sayings and the over all picture Christ gives of God) Then God sends the winds and rains/The trials of life to test what the man believes. If What he believes is based on what Christ taught the man's 'house/faith' stands.

If however the man builds his faith on some religious non biblically based version of God, God will send the winds and rain to test that faith, just the same. As you pointed out that faith will indeed fail!

This is why I say for most of you, your atheism is an answer or at least a partial answer to your prayer for 'proof' of God. If one want 'proof of God' the first thing that must be done is to test and have your version fail, so as to have the opportunity to build an accurate picture of Him. Once you have a biblical picture of God, it gets tested and from that testing 'proof' will be found.

Yes, I know we could get on about personal accountability, but in the end, when someone of faith is told that all they have to do is ASK, as you put it, and they do just that and still god fails them, the light bulb comes on and they realize that it was all just made up by man. We could go round and round about everything that's been discussed before but it really gets us nowhere.

Again, that might happen with your version of God, but the biblical examples are vastly different.

We are told to Ask Seek and Knock=A/S/K first so that we may build an accurate picture via asking, in seeking (in scripture and in church) we vet or verify said picture and it is in this knocking that proof is found. Because what or how does God reveal Himself? Through our trials. God takes us in through a trial past the point where we are beyond the Help of anyone or anything, often times past the point of even hope (depending on how hard your heart is) So that when you get delivered from those circumstances you will know or even see that it was the hand of God who saved you. That is what knocking is. It is to continue to seek and Ask God despite what good or bad that is happening around you. It is to simply endure.

So then the question will arise how do you know what you find is not just some confirmation/delusion born out of misery and pain? My experience told me it was not generated by me because what I found was vastly different than what I had ever imagined, and it was only through continued bible study that I matched up the God I found with the version of God spelled out in the bible.

At the end of the day, the reasons for why people don't personally believe are just that... their reasons.And they have a right to their non-beliefs just as much as believers have a right to their beliefs. And that's really the bottom line here. I think the point of this thread was to get people talking about what led to their mindsets as far as believing in a deity goes. It wasn't an invite for people to be preached to or for people to be challenged on why they don't believe.

Which I why I personally don't care to try and "sell" God to them. My 'job' here is to provide clarity about Him and answer question of those who ask.
What I'm doing here in this thread is a bit of a failure analysis. In that I am analyzing the various reasons and explaining why their 'reasons' brought them failure for their efforts. It's the 'clarity' part of my mission statement.

I don't believe in any god or gods. I stated why pages and pages ago. That's good enough for me since god had failed time and time again to present himself in front of me.

Again what if the failure was yours?
Think about it. Do you truly expect any MAN of sufficient rank or title to "present himself before you for your approval?" Does the POTUS after his swearing in hop on Air force 1 to your city and state to "present himself" before the great and powerful Nymphadora?!?!

No???

Then why would you expect the creator of Everything show up at your door like a birthday clown performing 'magic tricks' and or grant your wishes till you conditionally believe if and only if you always get your way or what you want?

Does it say that in the bible anywhere?

Or is this just your example/Your version of who you think God truly is?

Just for the sake of Argument let's say their is a God that is accurately described by the bible. Now let's say he (going against his nature as described by the bible) grants all your wishes, shows up at your house like a birthday clown and does everything you want your way, and you believe...

Now, who is it you believe in? Your f-ed up version of God that you control and that serves you, or the God of the bible?

Which is why God does not support/answer petitions of those who seek to serve a God of their own making, or in your case endorse a picture of God that serves them.

This benefits no one. Which is why God sends the wind and the rain to destroy your picture of God. Which gives you opportunity to rebuild an accurate picture of him. One that He can FULLY Support.

Both when I was a child and grew into an adult. If I have to conjure up some sort of image of him because he fails to "show himself", as it were, then in my opinion, he's not real.

Your right! what you conjured was not real. and you know this because God would not support it in any way shape or form.
I think the biggest disservice the 'church' has ever bestowed upon us was the idea that God is our personal version of a loving father. This ultimately puts people on the wrong end/the wrong structure to weather the coming storms.

I've extended the invitation to him to join me for lunch (I'll pay) to answer some questions, time and time again.

What if... you right now could not identify God if he did indeed take you up on your offer? After all, your whole life you admitted to have created many pictures of Him. What if none of those pictures show up to your lunch? What if someone else showed up? How would you know if God ever took you up on that offer or not?

Meaning what if someone who would not play your games showed up (Tell me what number I'm think of, or tell me how many fingers am I holding behind my back, what are the winning lottery numbers this week etc...) What if He sent a messenger instead to put you back on the proper track, so that you could take Him up on His offer to have a literal direct 24/7 access to Him? Does this mean God did not answer your prayer because He would not conform to who you demand Him to be??

He's not ever taken me up on that offer. Therefore, the magical sky daddy is just some made up entity, created by man so that they have something to follow. That's it. That's all there is to it. If you think differently (and you do), that is entirely your right to do so. But without some sort of physical evidence, I cannot applaud your efforts to try and change any minds here.

Most of you have a picture of God who 'owes you.' who somehow in indebted to you kinda like a dead beat dad who owes Child support. But, here's the thing... You are not a Child of God. At least not yet. God will not come to you. We are to go to Him in humility. If we can not do this then we can asked to be humbled so we can Go. Or we can ask God to give us the strength to asked to be humbled.

But, if are demanding God see you on your terms, know He will see you to Hell first.

Again we are not in the position of power nor authority here. We need to view this as someone approaching a being with great power and authority, not your buddy who owes you a lunch.

[Drich]

That's the thing though.. My evidence (experiences) do indeed support what is claimed by scripture. (and then some.) Yet, it is discounted or rather most of your personally decide to discount the evidence provided. Some call me a liar, other tell me I am suffering from confirmation bias, Others say I'm crazy.

Your interpretation of Genesis 2 is enough to land you firmly in crackpot territory.

Why? Is it because I am simply reading what is on page and stopping with what is on page. Not filtering it first through the traditional church view?

Now again, you ask would my 'experiences' act or is supposed to act as evidence for anyone else? a 1000 times no. My experiences were for me and me alone. They were only meant to for me to use to establish and maintian my system of belief. But, again here's the thing. God offers this same process to everyone who needs it.

And yet you parade your 'experiences' before us as evidence that A/S/K works.  So this is a lie, you do use it as evidence.

evidence for ME! Then I also tell you God offers this sort of experience tailor made for you!
Meaning your experience will be just as powerful, if not more, but tailored to you!

 You don't know what God does or does not offer to others.

 Yes I do. He offers the Holy Spirit as outlined in Luke 11. Meaning GOD directly interacts with you via the Gifts and 'spiritual fruit' outlined by Paul. Which clearly include everything I mentioned and a whole lot more

You have a belief based on some passages in a book and your own experience.  So don't say you don't use your experiences as evidence because you absolutely do.

FOR ME YES, I ALSO SAY GOD WILL DO THE SAME FOR YOU, BUT ON YOUR OWN SCALE!!!

I have pointed to the account of doubting Thomas many times in this thread to support the idea that God offers individual attention to those who require it if they just A/S/K for it. Thomas did not get to witness Jesus as the other 10 did, as a result he said he would not believe till he touched the wounds of Christ so He could know for Himself. So what does God do? Does He tell Thomas his faith is not strong enough? No the only thing Required of Thomas was to be in that upper room. And Jesus let Thomas experience what He needed to establish and maintain a system of belief that lead to a horrible death on His behalf, as Thomas knew Christ was really God, and all that He said was true.

You can read the mind of Jesus?  It's just a story, and now we have your interpretation to add to the thousands that have come before.

 It is Just A story confirmed by thousand of years of followers personal testimony. Even the Apostle Paul Given the Exact Experience He needed (like Thomas) to establish and maintain a life long faith, and even stared down 5 40 lash -1 beatings, imprisonments and even died a martyrs death. And it all happened to me as well. so.. yeah just a story, that's confirmed millions of times over the last couple thousand years.

You don't know why Jesus offered Thomas physical proof.

YOU Don't know what Jesus Offered Thomas Proof. I do. He offered because he needed it. Again we/I can know this because this 'proof' is repeated through out the History of the Church. It is even solidified in the Out pouring of the Holy Spirit. At the end of Jesus' Ministry He says 'He must go so the Father could send the Holy Spirit to be poured out, that He was only one man and could only reach one person at a time but the Holy Spirit could touch everyone at once. This is What I am saying we all have access to 24/7 via A/S/K

 Maybe it didn't happen and was just a story told so that the author could put an admonishment against not having faith into Jesus' mouth.  You don't know any more than I do.

Or maybe it did, and millions of people over thousands of years including myself have personally tapped into What God offers us all here.

Sure, and when the promise is shown to be empty, you'll be there to blame the disappointed.  You're a true Christian.

I honestly do not know one person who A/S/K the God of the bible (not some Idol they themselves spun up) and was disappointed. So there's that.

[Drich]

I can't buy into that. No... just look at Creflo Dollar or Benny Hill. So-called "leaders" for god. Hell, let's use Joel Osteen as a fine example here... lives in a 10 million dollar mansion. He's a self-proclaimed servant of god. But doing good for the rest of the people? While living in luxury? I think not.

One only has to look at the leaders of any mega church to see that there is nothing selfless or heroic about the cars they drive or the houses they live in. That is, they are people who have learned how to use an imaginary figure to make a very fat profit off of the backs of countless followers whom are most likely suffering and barely able to make their own ends meet.

Again, what makes their 'god' and yours of the same stock, is that both do not reflect the God described in scripture. Yes maybe there's does share a few more similarities, but as these men leave their ministry their version will ultimately go with them. As they are the driving force behind their gods.

[Drich]

This is what the outpouring of the Holy Spirit is (what we are supposed to be A/S/K-ing for) It is direct contact with God. My proof of God is meaningless outside as an example of what God offers to do for each and every single one of you who will simply "meet Him in the upper room" by Ask, Seek Knocking for the Holy Spirit.

Bit of a random musing, actually; You know what I've never really heard? A theist/apologist teaching that God doesn't answer some folks because he hates them. Or rather, knows they wouldn't make a good fit, so to speak.

I guess your not a close follower of the things I say/teach. I have said on more than one occasion, that God is not omni benevolent as some religious people believe. No where in the bible does it say this. Matter of fact their are people in the bible in whom God is reported to hate. There are parables where Jesus Himself attributes 'non followers' as Weeds, Chaff, Goats, (Basically the undesirables) that will be separated from the desirable and cast out.

Not everyone is meant to Goto Heaven, only those in whom God calls.

That would be a perfectly "plausible" explanation as to why some people never hear back from Him, next to Him just not being there, of course. 

Read some of the responses I get, or batter yet the ones i don't get. Those who are not call can nor will ever put the effort in to seek Him out.

Again, silence or rather the collapse of your faith (because you were over taken by a trail in your life and never heard from God) is par for the course that Christ Himself lays out in the parable of the wise and foolish builders.

At least as likely as "not believing right", it would seem. 
Though, I can certainly understand why you all would think that would be no good could come of telling telling some folks that they will never be 'called'. 

I have been doing this for a while. I have seen Many who were never called. Many if not most worship God by another name. It's like they were not meant to even be exposed to the God of the bible so they create a whole theology around themselves and who they want God to be. Many who are never called believe themselves to be 'saved' or the elect.

You can't save someone who is saved. You can not minister to the elect. That is why I am here. You guys (most of you) wanted at one point the truth about God. Only those who are called to God have the chutzpah to stand up and say hey, I prayed to God for proof and this thing I've been calling god did not answer. Those who were never called simply toe the line day in day out and seek ways to manipulate the system to benefit themselves.

Granted many of you also simply want the perceived freedom that comes from abandoning the religious structure associated with your version of God, but if that were only true these long winded discussions would not be taking place.

I'm not saying all of you fall into this category, but far more do than don't. Meaning I Believe most of you have an invitation/been called even if you don't respond.

If your God already knows who won't make the cut, that would make A/S/King an exercise in futility for some, wouldn't it?
Heh heh...If people have A/S/Ked and received radio silence, may they should just take the hint.

but again, if they know their God to be false who did they A/S/K?

The Key to A/S/K-ing as outline by luke 11 is that we A/S/K for the Holy Spirit. We can't do that if we A/S/K something we have created.