Mosque at Ground Zero

[Autumnlicious]

No. Flat out no.

Why? Because of the moderate muslim response and lack of it. Because of the symbol other countries will derive from it, far more plausible than not.

Because using the land for which a few thousand people died for the site of any place of worship to religions responsible for the cumulative deaths of millions and stagnation of progress is not only an insult to human nature, but is a vindication of every crime associated with religion and it's acolytes.

Would you propose setting up a shrine to Pol Pot near the site of his last major massacre?

It is just as innocuous, if you know a thing about ancestor worship and see little difference between that and the ancestor worship of modern religion.

So fucking hell no.

Make ground zero a park and a monument, and nothing else.

Let the thousands who died be a monument to themselves and the who they were, not to anyone or anything else.

That includes ancient nomadic goat herders and vile ancient Arabian traders, and yes, even political causes and ideologies.

[chasm]

Because of the symbol other countries will derive from it.

So we should strip these Muslims of there rights to freedom of religion/worship because we care what other countries think?

Because using the land for which a few thousand people died for the site of any place of worship to religions responsible for the cumulative deaths of millions and stagnation of progress is not only an insult to human nature, but is a vindication of every crime associated with religion and it's acolytes.

Look. The religion didn't kill anyone. Religions can not kill people. People who follow a religion can kill people, but the religion itself can not.

Would you propose setting up a shrine to Pol Pot near the site of his last major massacre?

Would you oppose to a church being built near the Virginia Tech campus because Cho Sung Wi compared himself to Jesus and murdered some students?

Make ground zero a park and a monument, and nothing else.

Oh! I see the problem. You think they are going to build the mosque on top of Ground Zero. They aren't.

P.S. Question: what about the Muslim victims of 9-11? You know, the American citizens who died in 9-11 who were Muslim?

P.P.S. I would have rebuilt the Twin Towers.

[Autumnlicious]

Because of the symbol other countries will derive from it.

So we should strip these Muslims of there rights to freedom of religion/worship because we care what other countries think?

They can worship where they want. I am not stripping their right to worship, only their privilege to build where they want, which is fully within the rights of the property owners and neighborhood.

I would oppose vigorously a mosque near my place, not only because of the god awful noise it emits, but because I simply do not want it.

Just because you oppose something doesn't mean you hate all of it - the only thing you can do is ascribe such things to another unless they admit it or have a consistent bias shown over time. Put up or shut up, as I say.

Because using the land for which a few thousand people died for the site of any place of worship to religions responsible for the cumulative deaths of millions and stagnation of progress is not only an insult to human nature, but is a vindication of every crime associated with religion and it's acolytes.

Look. The religion didn't kill anyone. Religions can not kill people. People who follow a religion can kill people, but the religion itself can not.

When the symptoms of the disease are synonymous with the disease by sheer volume and predictability, it becomes a fair approximation to argue that religion does kill.

It most certainly does kill parts of logic by blinding it's followers with illogical statements.

Would you propose setting up a shrine to Pol Pot near the site of his last major massacre?

Would you oppose to a church being built near the Virginia Tech campus because Cho Sung Wi compared himself to Jesus and murdered some students?

Only if he killed magnitudes more people, while espousing that ideology publicly, for a long enough time to make a clear and consistent ideology. I am not one for comparing a small minded psychotic individual who lacked the proper mental care and wasn't heeded seriously with someone who architected the deaths of hundreds of thousands over a significant period of time.

And as with time in consideration, 9/11 compares as in near instantaneous time of deaths compared with the casual reigns of mass murderers like Pol Pot.

Seriously, get a grip on magnitudes - compare mass murders with mass murders of similar size.

Make ground zero a park and a monument, and nothing else.

Oh! I see the problem. You think they are going to build the mosque on top of Ground Zero. They aren't.

Near or at, it is close enough. And they have demonstrated no pressing need for it, so why not somewhere else, a few blocks away?

Demonstrate their "need" and I'll relent. Else, fuck it.

[Tiberius]

They can worship where they want. I am not stripping their right to worship, only their privilege to build where they want, which is fully within the rights of the property owners and neighborhood.

The person planning the mosque bought the property which they are building the mosque on. They have all the plans and permissions, and they got them the same way anyone else building a structure would have.

I would oppose vigorously a mosque near my place, not only because of the god awful noise it emits, but because I simply do not want it.

As far as I am aware, this mosque will not have a call to prayer. It would be pointless in a city such as New York. This mosque will also be a community centre, aimed at strengthening Islamic relations within the city.

When the symptoms of the disease are synonymous with the disease by sheer volume and predictability, it becomes a fair approximation to argue that religion does kill.

Yet the people behind the building of the mosque have been trying for years to strengthen American-Islamic relations. They aren't radical muslims; they do not believe in killing innocent people.

And as with time in consideration, 9/11 compares as in near instantaneous time of deaths compared with the casual reigns of mass murderers like Pol Pot.

Seriously, get a grip on magnitudes - compare mass murders with mass murders of similar size.

Yet this isn't a shrine dedicated to mass murderers. This is a community centre dedicated to Islamic worship, and strengthening relations in the city. Your comparison is a pathetic one.

Near or at, it is close enough. And they have demonstrated no pressing need for it, so why not somewhere else, a few blocks away?

...it *is* a few blocks away.

Your reaction to this is the typical knee-jerk "I don't know what I'm talking about because I haven't done any research on this issue" kind. If you listen to the anti-islam activists like Pat Condell all the time, you won't ever get the full story. They intentionally leave facts out, and make stuff up, because as far as they are concerned, getting rid of Islam is more important than being intellectually honest.

[Minimalist]

P.P.S. I would have rebuilt the Twin Towers.

I sure as shit would not want to work in it.

[Autumnlicious]

The person planning the mosque bought the property which they are building the mosque on. They have all the plans and permissions, and they got them the same way anyone else building a structure would have.

Then that settles it - they got the property and plans - if anyone opposed it, the time for such is long over.

As far as I am aware, this mosque will not have a call to prayer. It would be pointless in a city such as New York. This mosque will also be a community centre, aimed at strengthening Islamic relations within the city.

I've often found that pointlessness and religion go hand in hand.

Yet the people behind the building of the mosque have been trying for years to strengthen American-Islamic relations. They aren't radical muslims; they do not believe in killing innocent people.

After a while, it feels so poisonous that even the remote touch of certain things brings up bad memories and even worse historical occurrences.

Yet this isn't a shrine dedicated to mass murderers. This is a community centre dedicated to Islamic worship, and strengthening relations in the city. Your comparison is a pathetic one.

Historically, building shrines and places of worship on top of the charred or destroyed remains of a previous temple or monument is a vindication of the aggressors religion. I seem to be a little sensitive to history here, and the parallels are nothing but unsettling.

Near or at, it is close enough. And they have demonstrated no pressing need for it, so why not somewhere else, a few blocks away?

...it *is* a few blocks away.

Your reaction to this is the typical knee-jerk "I don't know what I'm talking about because I haven't done any research on this issue" kind. If you listen to the anti-islam activists like Pat Condell all the time, you won't ever get the full story. They intentionally leave facts out, and make stuff up, because as far as they are concerned, getting rid of Islam is more important than being intellectually honest.

As far as I am concerned, Islam is the most poisonous mainstream religion to exist now. And I would like nothing less than to see it marginalized. Infinitely more than anything else.

Cheers - you've found one of my huge biases and hates.

I've despised Islam from the moment I read the Quran and all the shit that happened in a years time (9/11, riots in the middle east over cartoons, female genital mutilation, etc).

You might say blame the people, not the idea, but an idea, while not responsible, resows the fields for continual cultural garbage, however indirectly and should be ever remembered with such.

[chasm]

I sure as shit would not want to work in it.

Not my point, though. I don't see a lot of other places that are reserved and untouched because a mass of people died.

[Minimalist]

I sure as shit would not want to work in it.

Not my point, though. I don't see a lot of other places that are reserved and untouched because a mass of people died.

Nor mine. There was an observation during the War of 1812 (because of the power of the Royal Navy) that "people's ardor for war increased with their distance from the coast."

Similarly, I noted that lots of people who never would have worked in the Twin Towers wanted to rebuild them to send a message. The message would be "let's see you do that again" but they would not have been the ones looking nervously out the windows for low-flying planes.

Bravery increases with distance. The REMFs are the bravest men in any army!

[Tiberius]

Even I found this hilarious: http://www.dailygut.com/?i=4696

[Autumnlicious]

Even I found this hilarious: http://www.dailygut.com/?i=4696

If that we're to really happen, I'd drop every issue I have with there being a mosque near Ground Zero.

Hell, I'd even chip in a few bucks towards the construction fund. Nothing beats pissing on fundamentalists.