Islam Counter-Apologetics

[Veritas_Vincit]

Hi all,

I would be interested to hear what you consider to be the strongest counter-apologetic arguments against Islam.

[robvalue]

From what point of view? Factually, morally... something else?

If it's factually, I made this video which I feel counters most of the argument style apologetics; Islamic or otherwise. This just leaves trying to prove the Quran is true by trying to establish a bit of it is true, which is clearly flawed.

https://youtu.be/inw1fNItjdU

[paulpablo]

Personally the first point I would make when talking to someone about my disbelief in Islam is that I don't pretend to have any argument that totally disproves Islam.

I can't read Arabic so I don't know if the Quran is the most beautiful unique book ever. I wasn't there around the time of Muhammad so I don't know if he was an illiterate man visited by an Angel.

My main argument against Islam is that it's very suspicious to have a book written as a message to the entirety of mankind in one language and very focused on local events and specific to the time period the Quran was being written in terms of buildings, cultures, idiomatic expressions.

For instance the phase "whom the right hand possess" doesn't mean anything literally. It's an Arabic idiomatic expression.
In addition there's people in the book and situations that aren't understandable in any context without the help of Hadith or other historical sources, for example in the Quran Muhammad randomly talks about his uncle and how he will be in hell.
It's sort of like me saying my uncle from Yorkshire has a message for the entire world, the message is that it's going to rain cats and dogs in Barnsley next week if Tom doesn't get his act together and pull his finger out. He better bloody well put some elbow grease into it.

Which sounds funny but this is exactly what Muslims believe.

[robvalue]

I have other videos about scepticism which deal with approaching religious claims in general, if that would be helpful.

But any book that contains events which haven't been demonstrated to even be possible should be presumed fiction until such time as evidence shows otherwise. And it would take a boat load of evidence to back up such extraordinary claims.

My personal argument is that I don't care if Islam, or any religion, is true. Worship is a twisted concept, and I don't need to be told how to live my life by anyone. I'm not interested in religion.

[Mystic]

The best argument that can possible exist against it, would it be there is no philosophical argument for it neither evidence in particular about it (ie. it has no miracle proof).

The next best argument against it would be to find a flaw in it such that there was no way to get out the logic showing there is inherent flaw, like a contradiction or something.

I disbelieved in Islam for five years because I thought both of these were true.

However, I believe there is strong arguments for Islam as a general structure (ie. submission to God via those he appoints) and I feel there is philosophical arguments that point to the particular Islam (ie. the Islam of Mohammad), and I believe there is evidence that there is a miracle (both philosophically proven and experience by the book proves it).

Every time I really wanted to discuss these sort of proofs, most people here didn't want to move out phase 1. Is there proof of God.

[Mystic]

Personally the first point I would make when talking to someone about my disbelief in Islam is that I don't pretend to have any argument that totally disproves Islam.

I can't read Arabic so I don't know if the Quran is the most beautiful unique book ever. I wasn't there around the time of Muhammad so I don't know if he was an illiterate man visited by an Angel.

My main argument against Islam is that it's very suspicious to have a book written as a message to the entirety of mankind in one language and very focused on local events and specific to the time period the Quran was being written in terms of buildings, cultures, idiomatic expressions.

For instance the phase "whom the right hand possess" doesn't mean anything literally. It's an Arabic idiomatic expression.
In addition there's people in the book and situations that aren't understandable in any context without the help of Hadith or other historical sources, for example in the Quran Muhammad randomly talks about his uncle and how he will be in hell.
It's sort of like me saying my uncle from Yorkshire has a message for the entire world, the message is that it's going to rain cats and dogs in Barnsley next week if Tom doesn't get his act together and pull his finger out. He better bloody well put some elbow grease into it.

Which sounds funny but this is exactly what Muslims believe.

Do you think Pharaoh discussed in Quran is particularly about Pharaoh? Or is Pharaoh used to show something more universal in structure of society? (ie. the Taghut)

[The Grand Nudger]

Do you think that Allah as discussed in the quran is particularly about allah?  Or is allah used to show something more universal in structure of society? You tell me that your miraculous book is a collection of metaphors and I'm just going to agree with you....right down to allah and the miraculous nature of the book.

[Minimalist]

I bet he isn't willing to go that far!

[paulpablo]

Personally the first point I would make when talking to someone about my disbelief in Islam is that I don't pretend to have any argument that totally disproves Islam.

I can't read Arabic so I don't know if the Quran is the most beautiful unique book ever. I wasn't there around the time of Muhammad so I don't know if he was an illiterate man visited by an Angel.

My main argument against Islam is that it's very suspicious to have a book written as a message to the entirety of mankind in one language and very focused on local events and specific to the time period the Quran was being written in terms of buildings, cultures, idiomatic expressions.

For instance the phase "whom the right hand possess" doesn't mean anything literally. It's an Arabic idiomatic expression.
In addition there's people in the book and situations that aren't understandable in any context without the help of Hadith or other historical sources, for example in the Quran Muhammad randomly talks about his uncle and how he will be in hell.
It's sort of like me saying my uncle from Yorkshire has a message for the entire world, the message is that it's going to rain cats and dogs in Barnsley next week if Tom doesn't get his act together and pull his finger out. He better bloody well put some elbow grease into it.

Which sounds funny but this is exactly what Muslims believe.

Do you think Pharaoh discussed in Quran is particularly about Pharaoh? Or is Pharaoh used to show something more universal in structure of society? (ie. the Taghut)

No idea.  I couldn't begin to guess.

[Mystic]

Do you think that Allah as discussed in the quran is particularly about allah?  Or is allah used to show something more universal in structure of society? 

If God was unrelated to humanity and unrelated to guidance, and was not something universal in humanity, there would no point. The Quran for example briefly mentions Michael. The ahadith tell us exactly who Michael is. Does it matter at the end, if it's Michael, or someone else with a different name?

In the case of God, because he is unique and one, it is about God in particular.

In the case of the Pharaoh or Prophet's evil uncle, they represent instances of the Taghut or branches of the Taghut. 

Sometimes the Quran talks in general, and sometimes it brings specific examples to a specific time and place. But the latter can have general implications, and just as the general talk has particular instances in time and place.