Archaeologists Find Athenian Naval Base

[Minimalist]

2. It wasn't just the exploration that drove European technological innovation, it was a combination of a ruthless devotion to the economic exploitation of what it had explored, as well as the demographics that provided the people who would go and exploit at vast risk to their own lives, and a economic system which made the capital required for this exploration available, that drove the technological innovation.

There was also the factor of necessity.  By the 15th century the Islamic kingdoms of West Asia had recovered from the ass-kicking the Mongols gave them and were newly re-energized and cracking down on various xtian groups within their borders.  Between them, the remains of the Byzantine Empire and the Venetians the China trade was tied up.  Long before Columbus the Portuguese were coasting down Africa and planning to reach India which they ultimately did.  Columbus' discoveries led to the God, Gold, Glory boom for the Spanish.  The growing nationalism of the Western European powers was a factor:  They did not want to be controlled by the East.

[Minimalist]

This digression revolved around whether Rome in particular or classical western civilization in general had acheived substantially heightened probability of attaining scientific modernity which were subsequently squandered under the baleful influence of Christianity.

It's a historical conundrum along the lines of "what would have happened if Pickett's Charge succeeded?" or "suppose Napoleon had won at Waterloo."

The deadening hand of jesusism - or "baleful influence" as you put it - put a definite break on intellectual pursuits in the Empire which were not concerned with god shit.  Theology is about the most useless subject anyone can imagine but we also have the example of the Byzantines where the Empire did not fall for another 1,000 years but which still wasted much of its energy and resources on church-related shit.

However, it could be an intellectually interesting discussion.  Suppose instead of this jesus death cult with its fixation on the next world Rome had maintained its policy of tolerance and worried more about this world?  Suppose we had not consigned those 8-9 centuries in the West to the flames of ignorance?

[Anomalocaris]

This digression revolved around whether Rome in particular or classical western civilization in general had acheived substantially heightened probability of attaining scientific modernity which were subsequently squandered under the baleful influence of Christianity.

It's a historical conundrum along the lines of "what would have happened if Pickett's Charge succeeded?" or "suppose Napoleon had won at Waterloo."

The deadening hand of jesusism - or "baleful influence" as you put it - put a definite break on intellectual pursuits in the Empire which were not concerned with god shit.  Theology is about the most useless subject anyone can imagine but we also have the example of the Byzantines where the Empire did not fall for another 1,000 years but which still wasted much of its energy and resources on church-related shit.

However, it could be an intellectually interesting discussion.  Suppose instead of this jesus death cult with its fixation on the next world Rome had maintained its policy of tolerance and worried more about this world?  Suppose we had not consigned those 8-9 centuries in the West to the flames of ignorance?

If the west had not been consigned during those 8-9 centuries to the flame of ignorance fanned for the benefit of the cult of Jesus, the west might have looked better during those 8-9 centuries.  But that's it.   I don't think it would have hastened the arrival of the scientific enlightenment 11 centuries later in the western world.    Keep in mind during those same 8-9 centuries, there were other civilizations on earth that did look much better, that stared out as advanced as Rome and never suffered any thing comparable to the dark ages.  They experienced no scientific enlightenment.

[Minimalist]

Keep in mind during those same 8-9 centuries, there were other civilizations on earth that did look much better, that stared out as advanced as Rome and never suffered any thing comparable to the dark ages.

Who do you have in mind?

[Anomalocaris]

Keep in mind during those same 8-9 centuries, there were other civilizations on earth that did look much better, that stared out as advanced as Rome and never suffered any thing comparable to the dark ages.

Who do you have in mind?

The Chinese. No Jesus, no dark ages, no enlightenment.

[Minimalist]

Chinese history is a bit bloodier than that.  Multiple dynasties rose and fell.  The nation expanded and contracted.  The Mongols overran the whole country.  And they were exposed to "jesus" in the 7th century but had the good sense to exterminate the cult much as the Japanese did later.

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/storie...china.html

According to the stela, unearthed in the early 1600s, Christianity came to China in A.D. 635, when a Nestorian monk named Aluoben entered the ancient capital of Chang’an -- now modern-day Xi’an -- in central China. His arrival must have been the source of some excitement because the e mperor sent his minister of state to greet the guest and bring him to the palace. Although we do not know where Aluoben came from or why he visited China, some scholars believe that he arrived from Persia and was part of an important foreign delegation. Whatever the case, the Tang emperor issued an imperial edict three years later allowing Aluoben to build a monastery in Chang’an and to settle there with a handful of missionaries. 

[Thumpalumpacus]

That's arguable, Chuck. The stultification of Chinese culture after the 15th century made it prey for 19th-century European powers, and even the Japanese, late-comers as they were.

[The Grand Nudger]

Moros turned me on to 15th century China, on these boards..years ago.  Taking a look at the state of their empire at the time, it's easy to see why they stagnated.  There was the sense that they had everything that they needed, and looking out at the rest of the world could have done very little but re-enforce the notion that the Imperial Seat was the center of the universe and that there was no reason to look elsewhere or change what they had.

[Minimalist]

Currently a political theory known as Drumpfism.

[Minimalist]

Min, have you by any chance read the letters from Vindolanda? It's not only the architacture and contraptions that make them seem close to us, but also their thoughts and how they communicated. It's much closer to us than anything i read from the middle ages.

Hey, Abs.

I watched this tonight.  Right on point for what you are asking about.

https://youtu.be/K2VsibbzuBY